The Jared Leto Question

[robertlouis]

Actually....no.

Not all trans people (like me) feel the need to run from being transgender. While seeking asylum under the "woman" banner can bring immediate protection from bigots and the like....it really doesn't solve the underlying issue of judgement towards trans people (it simply masks you so they don't realize what you are).

Of course, this is really only a debate for those who pass....those who don't pass need to deal with the full brunt of being trans...because they can't hide under either "male" or "female" as easily.

The options available aren't simply limited to "female" or "male".

That is why I find it silly that trans people fight so hard to be accepted as female. They are fighting for the right to cower under that banner....and be granted all the rights and protections that women have (which, actually aren't even that great).

Why not fight for trans acceptance and trans rights? For us all? The right to dress how we wish and do what we wish with our bodies....instead of being given those rights, only as long as they fit within the stereotypical context of "a woman" or "a man" ((which, honestly leaves out a lot of people from crucial protections....and even health care)).

I think you did well not to rise to the moronic provocation of that poster. Far too many posters here, and people in the wider world, choose to reduce the complexities of transsexuality to the simplest form available, often that which conforms to their own set of narrow prejudices.

In the real world, trans girls, at whatever stage they might be in their transition, simply get on with it, living their lives a million miles from the fantasies of porn. And that's hard.

[runningdownthatdream]

Matthew Mcconaughey was the outright star of DBC. If you saw the movie it was most likely because of him, not Leto.

Mcconaughey had enough star power to drive the film with an actual TS in one of the supporting roles.

All Leto did is reinforce the message that all TS/TV/CD/DQ are one in the same, men part-timing as women.

Who remembers Midnight In the Garden of Good and Evil??
South Carolinian Lady Chablis was a preop transwoman who appeared in both the book AND the movie, and portrayed HERSELF in the film...and did perfectly fine.



It's all about the inclination and perspective of the producer and director. Some get it. Some don't.

This is the point I believe most of the others posting in this thread are missing. It's NOT about Jared Leto per se or whether he deserved an award or whether he's a good actor or whether he portrayed the character accurately. It's about ignorance missed opportunity by the director and producers of the film. There are few transgender characters in film and here was a chance to provide some authentic and meaningful insight into that world yet not only do they ignore the chance the director decides to be a prick about the rationale behind his decision.

[robertlouis]

This is the point I believe most of the others posting in this thread are missing. It's NOT about Jared Leto per se or whether he deserved an award or whether he's a good actor or whether he portrayed the character accurately. It's about ignorance missed opportunity by the director and producers of the film. There are few transgender characters in film and here was a chance to provide some authentic and meaningful insight into that world yet not only do they ignore the chance the director decides to be a prick about the rationale behind his decision.

This.

[Stavros]

Matthew Mcconaughey was the outright star of DBC. If you saw the movie it was most likely because of him, not Leto.

Mcconaughey had enough star power to drive the film with an actual TS in one of the supporting roles.

All Leto did is reinforce the message that all TS/TV/CD/DQ are one in the same, men part-timing as women.

Who remembers Midnight In the Garden of Good and Evil??
South Carolinian Lady Chablis was a preop transwoman who appeared in both the book AND the movie, and portrayed HERSELF in the film...and did perfectly fine.
It's all about the inclination and perspective of the producer and director. Some get it. Some don't.

The Jared Leto character Rayon is a composite of various people from Woodroof's life, some of whom may have been 'full-time' transgendered women some of them 'part-timing as women' as you put it. It is a fictional role in that respect, yet most of the time Rayon is in character, and this rings true with a lot of transwomen in the 1980s so I don't see what you are getting at as far as Leto is concerned -yes, the Producer and Director could have made a different choice -but as I also said in another post sometimes it comes down to agents too, and it is often up to an agent to get his actors a part as much as the makers of the film.

Lady Chablis in a poor film was at best two-dimensional and most of the time required to perform stereotypical limp-wristed gestures as a cartoon tranny, as tedious as Candy Carling in an Andy Warhol film.

Here is Leto from today's Guardian (full interview in the link):

"When you were preparing to play Rayon in Dallas Buyers Club, an HIV-positive transgender woman, did you talk to trans people and people with HIV? Yeah, definitely. I talked to transgender people and that was the education and the start of it all. I'm really grateful for those experiences.
Did you go method? I stayed in character the entire shoot. I couldn't imagine doing it another way. I'd gone too far to pick it up and drop it off."


http://www.theguardian.com/music/201...as-buyers-club

[SpoogeMonkey]

I think you did well not to rise to the moronic provocation of that poster. Far too many posters here, and people in the wider world, choose to reduce the complexities of transsexuality to the simplest form available, often that which conforms to their own set of narrow prejudices.

In the real world, trans girls, at whatever stage they might be in their transition, simply get on with it, living their lives a million miles from the fantasies of porn. And that's hard.

robert louis, fuck off

rabbiteyes

I find your view odd. Surely the term trans(ition) is a misnomer then, because you are by the very definition transitioning, thus taking a journey from male to something that isn't male and is a feminised male. And that by all intent and reason must be a more female form. Because you are identifying with female traits. I don't accept that the term trans is a negative for people, if the ultimate conclusion is reached (whether thats dependent of how the person sees themself, or if all the boxes are ticked). I believe its a badge of honour to wear whilst going through it, and shout about it so people can accept and bigotry will end. There are more trans stories than ever before IMO, which will eventually educate even the most retarded mind.

I find it insulting that you think trans people want to identify as the gender they fell they are.

However, food for thought. Thanks for responding, its something I never really considered before.

[Rabbiteyes]

I find your view odd. Surely the term trans(ition) is a misnomer then, because you are by the very definition transitioning, thus taking a journey from male to something that isn't male and is a feminised male.

Is transitioning simply moving from one gender to another?

It is really more of a set of mental, physical, and social changes that a person goes through (regardless of gender). It is a period of coming to terms with these set of changes and sorting through how to function in society within the new confines these changes bring.

While you may feel that trans is not a negative... most of the world does.

That is why trans people tend to run from the stigma associated with being trans (even to the point of denying they are transgender at all, claiming to be simply women with birth defects).

You see, trans people are raised in the same society as everyone else. We have the same prejudices and misconceptions about trans people as anyone does (at least, at the beginning of transition, before sorting out what we are and beginning to take those steps). Heck, I thought that trans people were either cute twinks in porn (who were born that way I thought), or those drag queens in pride parades. Both, as you can imagine, were not very flattering views of trans people or the reality of the situation.

Let's look a little closer at the definitions of "male" and "female" in our society.

Effectively, we live in a rather restrictive set of gender norms (which has only intensified within the last 30 years, to a point where even gender neutral products are beginning to be gendered....razors? Toothbrushes? Shampoo? Often these can be the exact same product, just in different packaging for their "correct gender")

So, when a person is viewed in our culture, we take a mental tally of their "male" and "female" qualities (since, in our culture, every quality is divvied out to be male or female...which is odd, since every human quality can be found in bother genders to one degree or another).

This is really the reason our culture strives to call MTF as "women" (even the trans people themselves, having grown in the same culture).

In our culture, the idea of a male having a certain set of feminine qualities just doesn't make sense.... at a certain point, we collectively decide to call that person female.

This is what happened with me. As I started transitioning, I obtained just a few additional "female" qualities (long hair, subtle redistribution of fat in the face)....and that is when people began to gender me female (and even people would argue with me when I said I identified as male. To them, it simply didn't make sense....a male is not a person with X number of feminine qualities).

This seems rather odd....at least to me. Either I was always female (a claim no one who saw me before would try to make)...or, the couple of feminine qualities that I gained through transition (such as long hair and subtle shift of fat in the face) are the "key" aspects that make a person male or female (again, a rather absurd claim to make).

There are actually a lot of "MTF" trans people who don't quite feel as if they are female.

BUT, things become a bit more messy when society starts to get involved.

You see, first...we have a great deal of pressure to identify as female. Using the male bathroom causes problems. Needing to correct (or sometimes argue) everyone and have lengthy discussions on the nature of gender grows old quickly. And, a range of other rather annoying "quality of life problems" that pop up when general society has a certain way of thinking (X number of feminine qualities = female).

And, it gets even worse when dealing with legal protections or health care. For example, if I want to be covered (or even for me to deal with some doctors for hormones), I need to tote the party line and tell them I believe I am female. That is the only recognized "legitimate" way of being transgendered and receive care. The same is true with bathroom protections or being safer in terms of matching legal documents when traveling (for example, canada has laws against a person who identifies as male but looks female being allowed to fly on airplanes).

Our society has a gross misunderstanding of gender (even with respect to transgender people). It forces us to "get with the program" of a very binary social structure built around gender. It is confining not just for trans people, but actually for cis gendered people as well (as the feminist movement shows, or even the growing discomfort men are showing with being unable to express themselves beyond a very limited range).

Trans people also buy into these ideas (some rather intensely, accepting rather dated ideas of relationship roles...sometimes taking it to a rather extreme level). And, like I said before, some trans internalize what they are being told (and have grown up within) to such a degree that they deny they were ever male in the first place (or even trans).

Here is the thing.....this isn't global. In other cultures, trans people (and their surrounding society) don't view themselves in the same way. There are a variety of ways they consider things.

Personally, I think the 3rd gender probably makes a bit more sense. Instead of trying to rip down the established 2 gender system... it simply adds a 3rd gender which is granted complete freedom of gender expression. It still allows for the binary division in society between genders....while also giving trans people a free pass to do as they wish to whatever degree makes them comfortable (since, well, trans people run a rather large range).

Also, it is a bit more healthy (in my opinion) for MTF to not see themselves as female.

Here is why.

Basically, if you are a MTF and you identify as female....suddenly all of your feminine qualities are "to be expected". The thing is, the male qualities which you still have are sources of "wrong" and undesired. It can cause a person to focus on their masculine qualities (body hair, bone structure, voice) to such a degree as to cause themselves a great deal of distress (for something they really can't help).

If a MTF person identifies as male, on the other hand. Suddenly all of the feminine qualities are amazing gifts and to be celebrated. They are unique, and beautiful (especially being compared against other men). While the masculine qualities left are simply "to be expected" and nothing to be upset about.

The "female world" is a rather harsh one (especially in our society, with the relationship to media and the like). HUGE focus is placed on imperfections and beauty. I really don't know why a trans person would wish that for themselves.

Why not simply embrace femininity (as much as you desire)...and celebrate all that you can achieve in that regard...without ever feeling like you are directly "competing" with cis females? Basically....celebrate being trans, instead of constantly feeling as though you are just a "woman with birth defects".

Or, so, that is how I see it.

I think this probably ended up pretty long

[BBaggins06]

Interesting that nobody mentioned the biggest outrage of the weekend's award shows.

Tyler Perry winning the worst actress Razzie for his performance in a Madea Christmas ...

[bte]

I think they should have attempted to find a trans actress to portray the role, but they didn't even attempt that. At the end of the day, does it really matter? Outrage over a straight guy playing a trans role, but would their have been outrage of a trans woman playing an HIV positive hooker? I don't know.

I don't have a problem with Leto playing a trans character, then again I am not trans. Do people have a problem of Neil Patrick Harris playing a straight guy on "How I Met Your Mother"? Did anyone have a problem with Justin Bratha (spelling?) playing a gay character on that show "The New Normal".

I don't know many TS actresses except for a few. Harmony, Laverne, and some of the trans women that played on the movie "Ticked off trannies with knives".

At least his win is getting people talking about trans people in movies.

[EZWind]

This is ridiculous. The Academy give awards to actors and actresses who display RANGE. Leto won that award BECAUSE he's a straight male. It would not have been so impressive an acting job coming from someone who lived that life 24/7.

...I thought the point of contention was that the role should have gone to a TS, not whether or not Leto deserved the award

I wonder if a trans person had played the role, would they have gotten an academy award? We are jumping through too many hoops.

....again, not the point...you're right about the hoops thing, tho

When the character is a woman, you try to find a female actor. When the character is a man, it doesn't hurt to cast a dude in that role.

...not necessarily, Linda Hunt did a fine job as a dude in Year of Living Dangeously

After a while some t-people will get tired of always seeing their kind, in lower class roles, as some Black Americans have.

...true...same for Italians, usually in the Mafia...Irish, usually drunks, etc
...it's a question of what scripts are out there and which ones of those actually go into development

.... there are other variables in the game that go beyond idealistic choice, and in the end, you do what you have to do to get the project going

...exactly right...and one of the main things you have to do is convince the studio that the obscene amount of money they are investing will eventually result in profit....and name recognition has a huge effect on the bottom line. The producers and directors hire people they believe can deliver the most convincing performance and who can best portray the essence of the character. Could a TS have done as well in the role?...quite possibly. Should they have tried to find one?...probably, but that takes a lot of time and money...a coupla those other significant variables. Maybe they decided they could save that extra expense after seeing that Leto's performance would be competent and memorable. It is, after all, show Business. It's not personal...it's business