Roots and consequences of Ukraine's violence

[broncofan]

The problem with using force promiscuously is that you make yourself look weak as a result. One of the main problems with the skirmishes the U.S has gotten into in the last several decades is that we committed troops without clear objectives. Without clear objectives you can never actually look like you achieve anything. You don't cow other nations by showing your willingness to fight. Instead you inflame them and make them want to push you beyond your limits both fiscally and militarily.

I think several historical precedents have been taken out of context. Some people think the fact that Hitler was able to get concessions from Chamberlain means that any time you attempt to negotiate before acting you are really appeasing a dictator. But you don't know someone will act in bad faith until they do. And you can't assume they will until they do. That doesn't mean we should acquiesce in the face of illegality, but we shouldn't commit troops unless we are really ready for a sustained war and have tried to find other means of solving the problem.

Then there's the issue of Reagan talking tough with the Russians. It was the type of bold gambit that either works or ends in catastrophe. That it didn't blow up in our face does not mean it could not have. The effect of Reagan's bombastic rhetoric on an already weakened Soviet Union has to provide one of the most deceptive and least instructive lessons I've heard of.

There is also the fact that Russia has been in conflicts where they've seen a large percentage of their population killed. We have not had to face a situation where our national existence was threatened. Does anyone, even someone as palpably stupid as Envivision, think we are ready to see five or ten million Americans sent home in body bags? Does anyone not think we should be absolutely certain we have to commit to that sort of conflict before we strike?

[Prospero]

Runningdownthedream. No. I mentioned that BBC report myself somewhere. I am not denying or defending the truth of a very unpleasant upsurge of some radical right wing elements. But that BBC report makes it clear to me they are an ugly minority, not running things as Moscow is proclaiming to justify its action. I am fervently anti fascist and anti racist, but Russia Today is a well established TV network funded by the Kremlin to push the official Russian line on everything. It is a propaganda network.

[Prospero]

This is an interesting background piece, published a couple of months ago, on the Night Wolves, the right wing biker gangs from Russia working as pseudo militia for Russia in the Crimea. These are not good people.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n19/peter-p...ms-of-delirium

[runningdownthatdream]

Runningdownthedream. No. I mentioned that BBC report myself somewhere. I am not denying or defending the truth of a very unpleasant upsurge of some radical right wing elements. But that BBC report makes it clear to me they are an ugly minority, not running things as Moscow is proclaiming to justify its action. I am fervently anti fascist and anti racist, but Russia Today is a well established TV network funded by the Kremlin to push the official Russian line on everything. It is a propaganda network.

Fair enough - they may not be running things as it were but it is a fact that fascism and the ultra-right (not sure those can be separated from each other) have been on an upswing in Europe over the past decade. And whenever there is chaos these types of fringe groups tend to blossom and - through inertia or complacency on the part of the moderates - rise to the forefront. This is clearly evident in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, and Syria. Those countries are ALL facing secondary insurrections led by the extremists. Given the history of the region, it's not a stretch to envision the ultra-nationalists taking advantage of the breakdown in government to impose their will on areas outside Kyiv. I think Russia has a legitimate concern, and unlike the bloody UN or NATO or individual countries like the US/UK/Germany/France have taken decisive action to protect people of Russian ethnicity as well as its interests in the Crimea. Their action - though illegal - may actual prevent Ukraine falling in to complete chaos. I for one would have loved to see the aforementioned superhero club rush to the rescue of the Cambodians or the people of the Balkans or the Tutsi in Rwanda or the people of Darfur in Sudan.

I think Putin - for all his previous bombast - is acting in a very restrained manner. Just as they did with Georgia a few years ago.

[Dino Velvet]

http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/27/co...ew-government/

Ukraine party accused of anti-Semitism receives top positions in new government

11:29 PM 02/27/2014

As the fires die down from the turmoil in Kiev, a political party that has been accused of promoting anti-Semitism and xenophobia is set to reap the benefits of the new government arrangement.
The Svoboda Party will take control of not one, but three ministries in the interim government.
These posts include the deputy prime minister and the heads of the agriculture and environmental ministries. In addition to these positions, a Svoboda lawmaker was appointed the new prosecutor general in the interim government.
Svoboda’s leader, Oleh Tyahnybok, is one of the leading opposition figures during the recent crisis in Ukraine and met with Arizona Republican Sen. John McCain when the former presidential candidate visited the tumultuous country last December.
Tyahnybok and other party leaders have been accused of making numerous anti-Semitic and racist remarks. In 2004, Tyahnybok urged his party in a televised speech to fight “the Moscow-Jewish mafia ruling Ukraine.”
In 2012, deputy party leader Ihor Miroshnychenko called actress Mila Kunis, who was born in the Ukraine, a “dirty Jewess,” which instantly drew international condemnation. Another party official, Yuriy Mykhalchyshyn founded a think tank called the Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre, which was named as a tribute to the notorious Nazi propaganda minister.
Even the founding name and original name of Svoboda bear an eerie resemblance to the Nazis. They were founded as the Social National Party of Ukraine and adopted the “wolfsangel” rune as their party logo, which was also a symbol used by Waffen-SS divisions in World War II and is a popular icon among neo-Nazis.
But the party denies accusations that it is anti-Semitic and xenophobic. Tyahnybok has been aggressive in dismissing allegations that his party promotes these ideas.
“Svoboda is not an anti-Semitic party. Svoboda is not a xenophobic party. Svoboda is not an anti-Russian party. Svoboda is not an anti-European party. Svoboda is simply and only a pro-Ukrainian party. And that’s it,” Tyahnybok declared in an 2012 interview with The New York Times.
Its party platform makes no explicit statements of anti-Semitism or racism, but it does contain some curious items.
Examples include: creating a list that would detail the number of KGB agents within the Ukrainian government, banning “Ukrainophobia,” banning the advertising of tobacco and alcohol as well as banning the adoption of Ukrainian children to foreigners.
Svoboda received over 10 percent of the vote in the 2012 parliamentary elections in Ukraine and received 37 seats in parliament — making them the fourth largest party in their country’s parliament.
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Svoboda (political party) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Oleh Tyahnybok - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[runningdownthatdream]

This is an interesting background piece, published a couple of months ago, on the Night Wolves, the right wing biker gangs from Russia working as pseudo militia for Russia in the Crimea. These are not good people.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n19/peter-p...ms-of-delirium

Indeed they are not.

[Dino Velvet]

Ukrainian nationalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Dino Velvet]

UKRAINE Extreme Nationalist In Charge Who Led Coup Against Elected Government 24Feb2014

[envivision]

History repeats itself. In 1979 , USSR invades Afghanistan under the watch of peanuts farmer Carter. Fast forward to 2014 , when Russia invades Ukraine under the watch of Kenyan superboy Obummer. Morale of story.... Nobody in the world respects the US when you have a liberal castrated idiot running the show.

On the other hand, when Saddam invaded Kuwait on 08/02/ 1990, GH Bush steadfastly issued a stern warning the same night: 'This invasion will NOT stand'. The guy followed his words by actions. The world was a safe place until Bubba Clinton came to town.

p.s.: This thread is overpopulated by Kremlin apologists... probably doped up A -hole elitists from the liberal Northeast.

[Ben]

Did the U.S. Carry Out a Ukrainian Coup?