Is Tgirl a better word - and should that become the norm?

[GroobyKrissy]

I honestly think other guys think you are confused tbh..

Look what Simon said pages back..

Look at the entirety of Simon's post history towards me, Kelly.

Think for yourself.

[GroobyKrissy]

Ohhhh yeah you put me in my place with that shot right? Too bad you didn't know the gun was loaded with blanks. Even if I were still in that line of work it wouldn't have bothered me. Society may frown on it but I don't and never have. You think I'm going to be ashamed that somebody who runs her own porn site implied that I was a whore and beneath her on a porn message board? ROTFLMAO. You really are delusional aren't you?

I didn't think anything of the sort. You stated that I fantasized about your life. I picked one portion out of it that I was fairly sure you had stated before (that you escorted) and recently to highlight that I don't.

My sincere apologies that I was incorrect about that. I remembered incorrectly and failed to do the homework before I wrote it and just chose to rely on my memory instead.

I never said you were beneath me and never implied it either. In fact, I stated plainly that I've been there done that and don't have a problem with it. I just don't "fantasize" about living that lifestyle again. I could care less if people escort to make a living or supplement their incomes. I don't need to and don't fantasize about doing it again.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Look at the entirety of Simon's post history towards me, Kelly.

Think for yourself.

I do I think you are loco and pulling at hairs and putting words in transsexuals mouths.

You were accusing me about age/passibility etc when I never even brought that up.

Psychological reflecting on me and other transsexuals.

I am shocked you write for a magazine or will be involved in anything to do with activism.

If that's the case I'm scared...

Feeling/Belief/Thoughts etc all the same thing.


Thoughts of suicide/feeling suicidal you are labeled as suicidal are they not?

I don't think anyone just BELIEVES right off the bat or know what's going on at first. They have feelings..sparks of thoughts...the BELIEF of who you are comes later when you find it.

So again girl potato potatoe

[dderek123]

[GroobyKrissy]

So just out of curiosity if I were out and about and ran in to you in your male mode. Should I call you sir? Ma'am? Maybe one or both with a wink to let you know I still thought you were transsexual? Do you know what somebody calls me when I am out and about or at work and they don't know my name? Try ma'am or miss or (if I'm very lucky) young lady. And that's the case every single day of my life. Can you really not tell the difference between you and I on the gender scale?

OK, now we're getting to the truth of the matter.

See, here is the real incongruity.

You SAY that Transsexual is "in the mind".

Yet your ACTIONS AND LACK OF RESPECT for someone says otherwise. If it is "in the mind" as you SAY, then why should the outward appearance make any difference at all? Why should being called a male or female name matter at all?

Your actions and your definition do not mesh. That is where I have an issue.

Can I see that you've made choices that I haven't made as far as "transition" goes? Sure.

Do I wish that I had all the knowledge available to me now when I was a child so I could have made similar decisions? Sure. I did not.

Do I regret any of the decisions, personally or professionally that I've made over the course of my life regarding transitioning? Not really. I'm completely happy with who I am and where I am in life. I've got a secure job, live well, have a close circle of friends, and sleep well at night.

Do I think you, making your decisions, and me making mine, makes you MORE Transsexual than me, as you obviously do (i.e. - have "earned" more of the title)? Emphatically, NO. It just means you made different choices along the way based upon your own experiences.

That is all. again... pretty simple.

[GroobyKrissy]

Feeling/Belief/Thoughts etc all the same thing.

You think that feeling and believing is the same?

You think that a thought equals a belief or a feeling?

Oh, ok. Tell that to your husband next time you see him. Just say, I feel that I love you. He'll know what you mean. Or just say, I had a thought that I love you.

Sheesh.

Anyway, I do have to go. It has stopped snowing here and I must make my way home. Y'all can have the last words and the last laugh as you two cuddle up and regale yourselves of how you gave a beatdown to Krissy.

Thanks for the conversation / discussion to both of you. I don't agree with either of you entirely but I'm glad there are people out there like yourselves who care enough about the issues to talk them over.

I wish you both the best in your lives and all the happiness it can bring you. Be well and enjoy your nights.

[Felicia Katt]

Most of this post is self plagarized and adapted from ones I did starting back in 2007 and 7 years later, we are no closer to peace and understanding on the issue. If it was beating a dead horse before, it's battering its fossilized skeleton now. I swore the last time this never ending debate heated up that I'd stay clear of the inevitable further flaming, but if I have 9 lives, maybe this topic is worth risking getting scorched to death yet one more time.


In Alice in Wonderland, Lewis Carroll wrote

"When I use a word...it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less....The question is...which is to be master -- that's all."

That may be ok for Humpty Dumpty and those with their own agendas, but the rest of us have actual dictionaries for more consistency and clarity.

Transgender: the state of one's gender identity or gender expression not matching one's assigned sex, independent of sexual orientation.

Transsexualism: A consistently strong desire to change one's anatomical gender.
Transsexuals may dress and behave as individuals of the opposite sex, and may choose to use hormones or surgery to develop desired secondary sex characteristics.

Notice here that it is about desire. Not actions. It says may, not has to or does or must. There is nothing about always. Being a transsexual is about how you feel, not what you do or cannot do in pursuit of those feelings.

No amount of surgery or hormones makes someone a transsexual and no shortfall of them prevents anyone from being one. Some people on this board, and elsewhere, for their own reasons, want to make actual physical transition or some sort of economic surrender or social sacrifice part of the the price of admission but its not part of the real terms of membership.

To be sure, Transsexualism is distinct from transvestism (cross-dressing) and does not always indicate a change in the individual's sexual preference.

Transvestism is the practice of dressing and acting in a style or manner traditionally associated with the opposite sex.

Cross-dressing is wearing clothing and other accoutrements commonly associated with the opposite sex within a particular society.

Potato Potatoe really.

Danny partridge, a formerly active board member had a more sardonic set of definitions.

transsexual: a term used by persons born as males who dress and/or act as females to describe themselves.

cross dresser: a term used by those above to denigrate others who they don't think look as feminine as they do.

transvestite: a term used by people not in the scene to describe everyone above.

Sadly, his definitions are closer to what many seem to follow in practice. I think which really should only go with the actual definitions. Which means we have to remember crossdressing is a verb not an adjective. To decribe or define someone in this community solely by their outer actions is wrong. If a person does not desire to change their gender, then their crossdressing may ultimately be just be a kink or a fantasy. Same if someone physically transitions for other less legitimate reasons. Neither is a sincere expression of gender. Actions don't define it. Other people's opinions don't either. Its up to the individual. They can do so by their words, or their actions or both. Or neither. Not every person who "crossdresses" is a TS. But some certainly are. Not every one who "transitions" is a TS. Some certainly are not.

When you try to say someone is "just a crossdresser" or "part time" or call them a dude, or use male pronouns or otherwise suggest they are less worthy of respect or shelter under the transgender umbrella, you are trying to use terminology to demean rather than define and to exclude rather than explain. words for their meanness rather than their meaning.

There is an old joke that goes like this:

You know the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual?

about 2 years.

Every transsexual has been through a period of doubt and despair and discovery. Some found their path through the looking glass into this wonderland right away, some wandered around lost for a while, and some others took a wrong turn on a dead end road. As Carroll also said "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there.” But its the jouney, not the route and not the destination that defines us and to minimize or belittle other travellers is wrong or counterproductive. You never get traction towards tolerance and acceptance by throwing others under the bus, all that ever really does is to mess up the drive train that a unified community can be towards progress and make the movement that the bus represents unattractive for other groups to want to ride with in support and solidarity.

Peace

FK

[TempestTS]

We are all simply Human.

Ill not waste time over words and labels because they only matter if you think they matter.

[msbhaven]

Most of this post is self plagarized and adapted from ones I did starting back in 2007 and 7 years later, we are no closer to peace and understanding on the issue. If it was beating a dead horse before, it's battering its fossilized skeleton now. I swore the last time this never ending debate heated up that I'd stay clear of the inevitable further flaming, but if I have 9 lives, maybe this topic is worth risking getting scorched to death yet one more time.


In Alice in Wonderland, Lewis Carroll wrote

"When I use a word...it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less....The question is...which is to be master -- that's all."

That may be ok for Humpty Dumpty and those with their own agendas, but the rest of us have actual dictionaries for more consistency and clarity.

Transgender: the state of one's gender identity or gender expression not matching one's assigned sex, independent of sexual orientation.

Transsexualism: A consistently strong desire to change one's anatomical gender.
Transsexuals may dress and behave as individuals of the opposite sex, and may choose to use hormones or surgery to develop desired secondary sex characteristics.

Notice here that it is about desire. Not actions. It says may, not has to or does or must. There is nothing about always. Being a transsexual is about how you feel, not what you do or cannot do in pursuit of those feelings.

No amount of surgery or hormones makes someone a transsexual and no shortfall of them prevents anyone from being one. Some people on this board, and elsewhere, for their own reasons, want to make actual physical transition or some sort of economic surrender or social sacrifice part of the the price of admission but its not part of the real terms of membership.

To be sure, Transsexualism is distinct from transvestism (cross-dressing) and does not always indicate a change in the individual's sexual preference.

Transvestism is the practice of dressing and acting in a style or manner traditionally associated with the opposite sex.

Cross-dressing is wearing clothing and other accoutrements commonly associated with the opposite sex within a particular society.

Potato Potatoe really.

Danny partridge, a formerly active board member had a more sardonic set of definitions.

transsexual: a term used by persons born as males who dress and/or act as females to describe themselves.

cross dresser: a term used by those above to denigrate others who they don't think look as feminine as they do.

transvestite: a term used by people not in the scene to describe everyone above.

Sadly, his definitions are closer to what many seem to follow in practice. I think which really should only go with the actual definitions. Which means we have to remember crossdressing is a verb not an adjective. To decribe or define someone in this community solely by their outer actions is wrong. If a person does not desire to change their gender, then their crossdressing may ultimately be just be a kink or a fantasy. Same if someone physically transitions for other less legitimate reasons. Neither is a sincere expression of gender. Actions don't define it. Other people's opinions don't either. Its up to the individual. They can do so by their words, or their actions or both. Or neither. Not every person who "crossdresses" is a TS. But some certainly are. Not every one who "transitions" is a TS. Some certainly are not.

When you try to say someone is "just a crossdresser" or "part time" or call them a dude, or use male pronouns or otherwise suggest they are less worthy of respect or shelter under the transgender umbrella, you are trying to use terminology to demean rather than define and to exclude rather than explain. words for their meanness rather than their meaning.

There is an old joke that goes like this:

You know the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual?

about 2 years.

Every transsexual has been through a period of doubt and despair and discovery. Some found their path through the looking glass into this wonderland right away, some wandered around lost for a while, and some others took a wrong turn on a dead end road. As Carroll also said "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there.” But its the jouney, not the route and not the destination that defines us and to minimize or belittle other travellers is wrong or counterproductive. You never get traction towards tolerance and acceptance by throwing others under the bus, all that ever really does is to mess up the drive train that a unified community can be towards progress and make the movement that the bus represents unattractive for other groups to want to ride with in support and solidarity.

Peace

FK

That is a perfectly well thought out rational and sensible dissertation on transsexualism, cross dressing, and gender identity disorder. And I don't have a problem with the theories contained there in.

Here is where it becomes problematic however, for the practical mechanics required to live in the real world something more is needed to define a transsexualism then a person's say so about their own desires. I'm sorry but if you follow that definition to it's natural conclusion then what the Christian Conservatives have been saying all along becomes fact, a man would in fact be able to simply say he has a persistent desire to be female to label himself as a transsexual. That is certainly not an acceptable position to anybody.

So to legally define what a transsexual is we need more then an individual's say so. What do we need? Well for years the standard has been, and still is at least for GRS or an Orchiectomy, that you have to have lived as a woman full time for a specified period of time, and you must have a letter from a certified therapist that designates you as a person diagnosed with GID. Most states still require completion of GRS to change your gender designation on your ID. In fact hormones usually require a letter from a therapist as well. And in some cases HRT is required before GRS.

Now those standards are starting to change and we are seeing a great many efforts to reduce the burden of proof for transsexuals and thus the financial burden required to transition. I applaud those initiatives within reasonable limits. I still believe therapy should be a requirement for GRS or an Orchi, but I think the need for a year or more of therapy and counseling before HRT is a bit much to ask. 12 months on HRT didn't move the needle enough physically for me that it was completely irreversible. And the emotional adjustment was more then adequate to determine that I was on the right path for myself. However other people's mileage may vary and I accept that HRT is an imperfect science at this time. The point is that it is becoming easier to start transition and that is a good thing. However transition is not a static condition nor is it simply dreaming about the future. It is a series of steps necessary to bring our outer shell in to alignment with our inner core.

Ultimately this isn't about lowering others or raising myself up, but about how we are perceived in the wider community and which rights are going to be granted to whom. And that is the other area where a legal definition for transsexual is needed. Being an undiagnosed, untransitioned part time transsexual is simply not going to work when it comes to defining the rights and privileges of being a fully recognized transsexual. The simple ugly truth is that at some point we all have to make a restroom choice and live with it because society is not going to let us bounce back and forth between the two, and quite frankly they shouldn't have to. And if you want to be a lady then you need to act like one all the time, not just when it is convenient to you. Because when it comes to gender you can be one or the other but not both at least where society is concerned.

In short if you are an undiagnosed untransitioned transsexual you are free to call yourself whatever you want. You are free to live your life however you choose, but don't expect to live in both worlds and share in the same rights and privileges granted to transitioning or transitioned transsexuals. You can't have your cake and eat it too. And it's insulting for a person to continue to enjoy the security and privilege of a male identity while simultaneously trying to claim the identity of a transsexual woman. It belittles the sacrifice and achievement of transition, and it makes a mockery of the concept of transsexualism.

[Felicia Katt]

Someone's different way of expressing their gender is insulting, belittling, and a mockery to yours. Thank goodness no one would ever consider that even remotely smug, self righteousness, or superior. LOL

And by all means, let's include the bathroom freak out standard in the discussion. Because a fearful ignorant restroom reaction is always the best driver for social policy and because no women or "fully recognized transsexuals" ever misbehave in bathrooms and there are no gender neutral laws against lewd or indecent behavior in them.

People should distinguish themselves by their own character and behavior not by trying to define or more accurately demean others. Put more simply, do (and define) unto others as you would have them do (and define) unto you.

Peace

FK