Supreme Court Rules Scientology is a Religion

[dderek123]

Come come, Robert...also there isn't much evidence Cruise is gay though he does seem to be a control freak. Before selecting his current wife he was provided with a candidate called Nazanin Boniadi, the Iranian-British actress who plays Fara Sherazi in Homeland -she has now left Scientiology for various reasons one of which is that she became a 'degraded being' when asking David Miscavige to repeat himself -she couldn't understand his accent. However, John Travolta is quite something else...

Nazanin Boniadi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I wonder if Tom is a lurker here. If he isn't gay he's a bit of a weirdo. Dude can act though.

[trish]

History plus the fact that Great Britain is still (at least ceremonially) a Monarchy certainly seems to create a problem. But at least the law only places obstacles in the way of Catholics seeking the office of Prime Minister. Is this only a sort of a ritualistic/legal entanglement or is there really a lot of anti-Catholic sentiment on the British Isle?

I realize how Ireland might still be a home of some religious animosity (though I don’t know in particular that it is); I can see how the issue Scottish independence might stir up some Protestant sentimentality in the guise of national identity; I can even see how it might be difficult to achieve some sort of separation of Church and State after so many centuries of entanglement; but removing anti-Catholic sentiment from law and ritual seems to be a minimal achievable goal.

I sympathize, in part, with your views of Scientology. It’s a commercial enterprise. So too, at its inception was Mormonism. In fact Mormons were essentially pirates on the open prairies. Modern Mormon isolationism and disposition for religious rule is a relic feature of their pirate youth. A great many of our Evangelist Churches are simply scams for squeezing money from suckers (Pat Robertson is only one in a long line of charlatans). Over the very few centuries of our existence, America has spawned a plague of new and ridiculous “religions” that are now sweeping the world. Sorry about that. But you guys in the Old World started it with your Jesus and then your Mohammad.

[Stavros]

Stavros, what is the general feeling of the population in the UK about Scientology, and why is there so much hostility in Germany compared to other European countries? Do you have an idea?
What seems to be the worst for me, is how the Church of Scientology exercise constraint and pressures not only on its members but also on those who are no longer members. It's pretty scary. But on the other hand, I'm affraid we could say the same of other faith, of most of the Christian sects at one point or another, etc. The Church of Scientology might just be raising the question of the status of religion in society indeed, as you and Trish were discussing, and of the lenght of rights that should socially by granted to religions. Here in Quebec, catholicism was a huge social force still in the 60's, something I can remember vividly. No doubt in my mind that a potential majority of practicing Catholics would once again prompt the Church to exercise suffocating powers over the ordinary life of people. It wouldn't have any more scrupuls than it did 50 years and more ago...

Dan, I don't know what the public thinks about Scientology, I think most associate it with Cruise and Revolting and think it is a bid wacky, but don't quote me on that -and anyway it isn't as if the Roman Catholic church has a high reputation here either...

There is a wikilist of states that do and do not recognise Scientology as a religion, here:
Scientology status by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The situation in Germany is in some way different from other states because in Germany Scientology has been declared an extremist organisation that is a threat to democracy. This suggests that where other states agonise over the meaning of words like 'church', 'religion', and 'worship', the Germans have investigated some of the practical aspects of Scientology and concluded that it brainwashes people and cannot guarantee a defence of democracy were it to become a state religion, and may. In addition, there is in Scientology a term called 'Degraded Being' which means:
Degraded Being. Someone so infested with Body Thetans, evil spirits, as to be in-auditable or insane. Also used as a general derogatory term. "These psychs are all DBs; without the tech, they won't make it."
http://www.xenu-directory.net/glossary/glossary_d.htm

-Given that this has a chilling connotation of the Third Recih's untermensch you can understand how sensitive this might be in Germany.

However, if you take my earlier point about Scientology being a commercial enterprise and that it is not possible to progress in the 'religion' without buying products, note that in Germany since 1803 a tax has been levied on Catholics, Protestants and Jews and that in a recent case a Leipzig court refused to allow a Catholic to refuse to pay the tax which is collected for the church by the State. The Catholic Church in Germany refuses to grant communion or a 'Christian' burial to anyone who does not pay the tax. The issue here is the 1803 Law not being repealed, and the argument that you cannot be a 'partial Catholic' if you don't pay the tax even though this is peculiarly German and, as the complainant argued being a Catholic should be a matter of faith not financial payment. The counter-argument is that the taxes are collected by the State so that the Church can fund charitable works like kindergartens and old people's homes, etc.

Two articles of interest on this here:
Germany contra Scientology:
http://content.time.com/time/world/a...695514,00.html

Catholic Church in Germany and taxes:
http://en.mercopress.com/2013/10/23/...ax-rules-court

[Stavros]

I wonder if Tom is a lurker here. If he isn't gay he's a bit of a weirdo. Dude can act though.

Careful there Derek -Tom Cruise is mighty important:

Tom looked at her [Nazanin Boniadi] like a frustrated, overworked executive, let down by a degraded-being underling.
Then he gave her the intense, laser-focus stare.
“You don’t get it. It goes like this,” Tom explained.
He raised his hand above his head, palm downward. “First, there is LRH.”
Moving his hand down a couple of inches, he continued: “Then there is COB (David Miscavige).”
He brought his hand down to his own hairline, highlighting the intensity and seriousness of his words: “Then there is me.”

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/201...me-tom-cruise/

[trish]

Dude can act though.

I never bought him as Ethan Hunt. Cruise is just too short, pretty and supercilious to be a convincing tough guy. I did totally buy his portrayal of the self-centered, social-climbing, envious doctor in Eyes Wide Shut. Perhaps Kubrik cast him to type.

[Stavros]

History plus the fact that Great Britain is still (at least ceremonially) a Monarchy certainly seems to create a problem. But at least the law only places obstacles in the way of Catholics seeking the office of Prime Minister. Is this only a sort of a ritualistic/legal entanglement or is there really a lot of anti-Catholic sentiment on the British Isle?

I realize how Ireland might still be a home of some religious animosity (though I don’t know in particular that it is); I can see how the issue Scottish independence might stir up some Protestant sentimentality in the guise of national identity; I can even see how it might be difficult to achieve some sort of separation of Church and State after so many centuries of entanglement; but removing anti-Catholic sentiment from law and ritual seems to be a minimal achievable goal.

I sympathize, in part, with your views of Scientology. It’s a commercial enterprise. So too, at its inception was Mormonism. In fact Mormons were essentially pirates on the open prairies. Modern Mormon isolationism and disposition for religious rule is a relic feature of their pirate youth. A great many of our Evangelist Churches are simply scams for squeezing money from suckers (Pat Robertson is only one in a long line of charlatans). Over the very few centuries of our existence, America has spawned a plague of new and ridiculous “religions” that are now sweeping the world. Sorry about that. But you guys in the Old World started it with your Jesus and then your Mohammad.

Although largely ceremonial, there have been allegations that Prince Charles uses his status to 'advise' Ministers on policy, though some of it seems to be him ranting on about his pet peeves, usually 'ugly' buildings and stuff like that. The Catholic Emancipation Act of 1829 repealed the ban on Catholics holding public office and other restrictions which had been in place since 1673, so in general terms you could argue formal discrimination against Catholics ended in the 19th century, but not in the case of the Prime Minister because of the reasons outline in an earlier post. Note however that the Act which followed a campaign by the Irish Catholic Daniel O'Connell -elected to the Commons but denied the right to sit there- had a negative effect on the Irish (who sent MP's to London at this time).
http://www.victorianweb.org/history/emancipation2.html

I think it is unfair to blame either Jesus or Muhammad for the religious institutions which followed them. I doubt either of them would approve of the systemic manner in which their beliefs and sayings have been 'codified'. There is a theory somewhere that Muhammad was offering his brethren in Arabia a means of worshipping one God in Arabic and that his interest was in creating a new set of attitudes to religious worship -one god to replace multiple idols; a sense of social justice for women and the poor, and so on. Whether this is actually a new religion or a regional variant of the beliefs and practices of the Jews and Christians amongst whom Muhammad lived, and with whom he mostly had good relations, I think would be disputed by those for whom exclusivity is precious, even though the monotheists all claim to have been created by the same God.

[dderek123]

I never bought him as Ethan Hunt. Cruise is just too short, pretty and supercilious to be a convincing tough guy. I did totally buy his portrayal of the self-centered, social-climbing, envious doctor in Eyes Wide Shut. Perhaps Kubrik cast him to type.

Yep he's had some great roles. Like in Magnolia and Vanilla Sky. My biggest criticism of him is the hero complex that stinks up most of his movies these days. I thought the Last Samurai was the worst for that. Russel Crowe's performances stink up the screen in the same manner.

[Stavros]

Apparently Tom had an affair with Cher in the 1980s and she rates him in the top 5 of her past lovers, of whom there seem to have been rather a lot. Where this might have placed David Beckham I don't know. There used to be a website in the early days of the internet (remember Netscape?) which had photos of hollywood cocks -I recall Schwarzenegger having a small penis, presumably because of the drugs he used to take in body-building, and Bruce Willis had a medium-sized version.

Anyway if it matters, there is Cruise and then David...

[danthepoetman]

A lot of very scary and very revealing litterature, linked here! Wow!

[Stavros]

Curious -the links worked when I posted them. Not that important but its something you can google if you really want to see it.