Veterans Day

[tsmirandameadows]

Okay, first off, I did not once say that war is necessarily unjust or unnecessary. In fact, I said several times that our response to 9/11 was "justified" and "[not] unreasonable". I was an Army brat, and likewise the only reason I'm not an active duty Army infantry officer right now was a medical disqualification that came down towards the end of my ROTC training -- probably a good thing as I'd still be in the midst of my service commitment and likely in a genderfuck hell of my own making. The point is that I'm not anti-intervention, or anti-military, or anti-war. But let's not pretend that Afghanistan and Iraq were about something nobler than vengeance. But vengeance isn't all bad -- our criminal justice system is largely built around vengeance, yet I think most of us agree that in most circumstance justice is in fact served by inflicting a harm upon someone who has done harm, e.g. taking away the freedom of one who has taken away a life. So yes, we were justified to wage war for the sake of vengeance. What we weren't justified in doing was asking only a handful of our fellow citizens to shoulder the burden, then to tune out the wars we asked them to fight once the going got rough.

With regard to saying thank you, I do not believe our deeds match our words in this regard. Words are easy, action is not, and our actions since about 2004 when the War in Iraq began to deteriorate -- we had already long since forgotten about Afghanistan by that point -- have spoken much louder than our words. If we truly meant our thanks, we would think about the fact that we are at war more than twice a year. We would ask that our media outlets actually tell us what is going on, so that we can learn the stories of the soldiers we have asked to sacrifice for us. It would be a part of our national dialog that there is a war on, and we would be discussing either how to better prosecute it or whether what can be gained is still worth what it would cost to achieve. But we don't, because we don't care. We like to pretend we do because it otherwise says something very nasty about our national character, but at the end of the day if we truly cared about the wars we asked our government and military to undertake, and if we truly cared about the fellow citizens we sent off to fight, then we wouldn't have spent the last 9 years tuning it all out, and no amount of saying thank you will make up for our hypocrisy.

So yes, I suppose you're right: I'm not really particularly sorry. I believe too strongly that we have something to be ashamed about as a country yet we are too shameless to honestly face it, and if that offends people on a national feel good about yourself day, then they need to spend some time at a VA hospital and ask themselves if saying thank you really means anything in the context of this national shame. And frankly, if you ever thought to ask, most service members become pretty deeply uncomfortable when random strangers thank them for their service. Likewise, the difficulty most vets face in readjusting to civilian life can be attributed to the fact that stateside the war is forgotten: think the scene from The Hurt Locker where he's shopping in a grocery store.

We should thank our veterans, but we should do so through actions not words. We should start paying attention and talking about the war again. We should consider a no-exemption national draft lottery, so that all families have an equal chance of having skin in the game, rather than just a chosen, forgotten few. And the next time we have a national debate over whether or not to go to war, we should be asking our selves what we, personally, are prepared to do, because this last time most of us didn't do a god damn thing.

[tsmirandameadows]

I am eating Chinese Food (which I'd probably be eating every day without those damn veterans... maybe I'm coming around), which makes me extra brilliant with its additional Asian boost. So, here is another question for you, Miranda, regarding thanks.

Numerous girls here, on this very board, including yourself I would guess (I can dig up the posts and find them if you would like), have "Thanked" their Fans.

So, do you think about what those Fans have gone through every second... working a job, skipping a meal, maxing out a credit card, to watch you fuck on film (if you don't think at least some of your Fans do this... wake up to reality)? I would guess you do not spend large amounts of your day thinking about your Fans... and neither does anyone here... even me.

Does that make your "Thanks" any less valid? No. It comes out of an immediate (read: present) internal realization that the collective actions of said Fans have enabled you some measure of success.

OK, back to wonton soup.

I guess I'm just too influenced by Aristotle ("For even if the end is the same for a single man and for a state, that of the state seems at all events something greater and more complete whether to attain or to preserve; though it is worth while to attain the end merely for one man, it is finer and more godlike to attain it for a nation or for poleis.") to think my personal business affairs are of equal significance to those of my country. Particularly when the matter is one of war, involving the sacrifice and death of fellow citizens.

[GroobyKrissy]

I'm not really seeing where I said that you said, "...war is necessarily unjust or unnecessary" so you first paragraph response... not really relevant to the points that I had. I'm not arguing the morals of war... I'm arguing the decency of saying "Thank You", even for something you have not personally experienced.

Your 2nd paragraph... Yes, I agree. Actions do speak louder than words. What I see you doing though (and those who postulate this same line of reasoning), is applying a very, VERY broad brush stroke based upon assumptions and your own personal beliefs. That is, you're making a judgement (people who say "thank you" today don't back it up with actions) upon people you know nothing about... unless you have some omniscience we mere mortals don't have. In other words, how do you know that people who are saying "thank you" today haven't, in fact, either donated time or energy to systems supporting veterans, troops, etc. etc. I certainly have in the past.

The lack of action, and instead just a simple "Thank You" (words) doesn't invalidate the sentiment behind it. That is why I said that "thanks" is a response... not an action.

Not everyone has the means to do the actions you require in order for it to be valid "thanks". And, speaking of which... what makes you the arbiter of what is ENOUGH action to be considered "thankful"...?

One could actually argue that based upon what you've written (remember, I can only make a judgement based upon that), you've been basically all words and no action for the very cause you believe in... ?? What ACTIONS have you done to promote this cause of yours... what organization have you started... what stage have you fought for to have your "national debate"...? I'm not being sarcastic here... I'm really interested in knowing because as you state, if there is no action, then you haven't done a "god damn thing".

[GroobyKrissy]

I guess I'm just too influenced by Aristotle ("For even if the end is the same for a single man and for a state, that of the state seems at all events something greater and more complete whether to attain or to preserve; though it is worth while to attain the end merely for one man, it is finer and more godlike to attain it for a nation or for poleis.") to think my personal business affairs are of equal significance to those of my country. Particularly when the matter is one of war, involving the sacrifice and death of fellow citizens.

Total cop out... and a really, really stale one - Oh, I'm talking about the (nebulous) "greater good"... - but of course, my criticisms are super-dooper specific enough.

What you're quoting, while sounding nice, has very little to do with the discussion about THANKS... and why we should or should not be appreciative and thankful on Veteran's Day (which I believe is your original premise).

(Let's not get sidetracked here - but just for the sake of it...)

So, you can hold others to a system of belief but when it comes to yourself personally, no matter what consequence it ultimately has, THAT is OK... because it fits your current needs... and doesn't affect the "greater good"...?

You know, something tells me that Aristotle, being a man of principle would be against that. You should live your life according to principles, whatever they are, and stand by them for yourself and for others.

But anyway. Totally. Different. Discussion.

[robertlouis]

I guess I'm just too influenced by Aristotle ("For even if the end is the same for a single man and for a state, that of the state seems at all events something greater and more complete whether to attain or to preserve; though it is worth while to attain the end merely for one man, it is finer and more godlike to attain it for a nation or for poleis.") to think my personal business affairs are of equal significance to those of my country. Particularly when the matter is one of war, involving the sacrifice and death of fellow citizens.

I tend to agree with Miranda in this debate. We suffer from a similar schizophrenia here in the UK when it comes to forgetting then belatedly thanking our troops.

Surely the real issue, however, is that we need to recognise the difference between the sacrifice of those who are sent on our behalf to fight wars on the other side of the planet and legitimate contempt, or at least disagreement, for and with the politicians whose decisions and murky moral motivations sent them there in the first place. It's only when we're satisfied that we can make that distinction objectively that we can move the debate on to a more philosophical plane.

While the two minute silence was widely observed and respected here on Monday at 11am, our primary day of commemoration is always the Sunday closest to the 11th. And while it is wrapped up with royalty and the leading politicians, there is no doubt in my mind that for most people it is about commemorating the loss and sacrifice of young men, primarily between 1914-1918 and 1939-1945, but also all the other wars since, and has little political significance; it remains deeply personal and largely respectful.

However, for those who fought and for those who still fight, it's about coping with the aftermath, and neither they, nor society at large, are equipped, and in the case of the latter, willing, to take responsibility for what they have suffered, whether it's physical and/or psychological.

And as long as wars are started on the basis of which president or prime minister - yep, that's you, Dubya and Tony - has the largest cojones - rather than on the basis of strategic or moral justification, we will not progress.

[LilyRox]

I think I pissed off Christian with my Veteran's Day commentary, so probably best that I not share my thoughts lol.

Commentary like in person or you mean like a video or just a discussion? If you have a video I would like to hear it.

Just asking, I like the original stuff.

[robertlouis]

That last post of mine meandered a bit.

Here's a song I wrote a few years ago about our Armistice Day = Veterans Day, that expresses it better.

Armistice Day


1. Shadows lengthen quickly on November afternoons
Streetlamps flicker early to welcome winter gloom
And as the days grow shorter, memories grow long
There’s something in the air today, echoes of old songs
In each lapel a splash of red, on each corner there’s a tray
Remember those you never knew, each sad Armistice Day

2. Young men mown down in thousands for a dead imperial cause
Faith in King and Country, the lie that fuels all wars
Lost generations haunt the years, women fill the void with tears
Old men march each November, reliving ancient fears
Their numbers down to nothing, as the shadows fade away
Remember those you never knew, each sad Armistice Day

Bridge: I have walked the fields of Flanders, I have heard the bugles call
Wept beside the Menin Gate, and watched the poppies slowly fall
Heard the chink of rusting helmets as the ploughshares lift the clay
Remember those you never knew each sad Armistice Day

3. And our eyes lift up from Flanders mud to distant burning sands
Where boys in khaki keep the peace in angry foreign lands
Defending politicians’ lies, beneath a hostile sun
Nothing ever changes, just the young men and the guns
Watching the parades pass by, as we hear the bugles play
Remember those you never knew, each sad Armistice Day

Coda: The last post and silence for all those left behind
And each slow dusk a drawing down of blinds
We share their grief just once a year, they feel it every day
Remember those you never knew each sad Armistice Day

[GroobyKrissy]

I tend to agree with Miranda in this debate. We suffer from a similar schizophrenia here in the UK when it comes to forgetting then belatedly thanking our troops.

Surely the real issue, however, is that we need to recognise the difference between the sacrifice of those who are sent on our behalf to fight wars on the other side of the planet and legitimate contempt, or at least disagreement, for and with the politicians whose decisions and murky moral motivations sent them there in the first place. It's only when we're satisfied that we can make that distinction objectively that we can move the debate on to a more philosophical plane.

While the two minute silence was widely observed and respected here on Monday at 11am, our primary day of commemoration is always the Sunday closest to the 11th. And while it is wrapped up with royalty and the leading politicians, there is no doubt in my mind that for most people it is about commemorating the loss and sacrifice of young men, primarily between 1914-1918 and 1939-1945, but also all the other wars since, and has little political significance; it remains deeply personal and largely respectful.

However, for those who fought and for those who still fight, it's about coping with the aftermath, and neither they, nor society at large, are equipped, and in the case of the latter, willing, to take responsibility for what they have suffered, whether it's physical and/or psychological.

And as long as wars are started on the basis of which president or prime minister - yep, that's you, Dubya and Tony - has the largest cojones - rather than on the basis of strategic or moral justification, we will not progress.

I don't think anyone (certainly not I) is thanking politicians. If they are, that is extremely misguided... so I agree with you on that. I don't think anyone is arguing that point at all, at least I haven't seen it argued that way.

This, to me, is not a complicated matter. You are, or you are not, thankful in some respect for the freedoms you have. If you are, then it is the decent thing to do to say "thanks" for those who gave their lives to help make them possible. Again, to bring it to this board. It is the decent thing if Miranda wins a Tranny Award this year to offer thanks to the Fans when accepting it. To not do so would be viewed as being in poor taste. Is that NOT an accurate statement? Besides not having a world-wide, universal impact on the galaxy... how is this any different?

If you are not thankful for the freedoms you have, then don't say those words. I'm not even arguing that point (to the full extent). What I'm saying is that based upon what I've seen written here, thus far, the ACTIVE ARGUMENT AGAINST saying "Thanks" (since somewhat walked back) is rubbish.

[GroobyKrissy]

Commentary like in person or you mean like a video or just a discussion? If you have a video I would like to hear it.

Just asking, I like the original stuff.

It was Twitter... read both of their accounts.

[tsmirandameadows]

To your first point, you said in your first post "For those of us who do have even a rudimentary understanding of history, you must realize that without the wars that have been fought, as tragic as they are, our lives would be very different." This sentence strongly implies that A) I have not studied history and B) that wars are necessary for the lives we have today. Since you felt it important enough to make point B, in the light of the accusation of ignorance which is point A, it is implied that my statements were somehow at odds with point B, that if I only knew better then I would see that wars are sometimes necessary. Hence, I felt that I needed to reaffirm what I had already stated: wars are often necessary, reasonable, and justified.

To your second point, you're right: I don't know about individuals and their specific contributions, which is why I talked collectively about the American people rather than specific persons. So is there justification to say that collectively we have something to be ashamed of? I have laid out my reasons for why I think we do, and likewise I don't think you or anyone else could seriously argue that we have all collectively made our fair contribution to the waging of the wars we were so hungry for a decade ago.

And I guess you've got me on actions: I haven't leveraged my nascent star power as a porn performer to start a national campaign to reintroduce the draft. What I have done is volunteered for military service -- ultimately meaningless because I never saw active duty, having received a permanent medical disqualification shortly after my branch assignment near the end of my pre-commissioning training -- and thought carefully about what I have observed over the past decade, contrasted it with other historical democracies at war, and formulated an argument for the kinds of policies which would force us as Americans to start taking war more seriously -- again ultimately meaningless, since thus far all it has led to is a few published letter to the editor on my part. As a transwoman, I am de facto disqualified from public office, and likewise, even if mainstream America suddenly embraced us as fully human and deserving of an equal share in society which is our right as citizens, my failure to get any sort of career going during that long, traumatic period in which I was non-passable, has not exactly left me with a resume that would see my election to a position to effect any change. Would that it were otherwise, because these are issues I am passionate about, and to which the policy solutions would ennoble us a country.