Veterans Day

[Jimmy W]

If anyone cares, while all the tributes to veterans of WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and all the wars in the Middle East are meaningful and solemn, Veterans day actually commemorates the end of the First World War. On November 11th at 11:00 am 1918 Germany agreed to an unconditional surrender and was forced to accept all responsibility for the war which lead to the Treaty of Versailles and the less than humane treatment of the German people which eventually allowed for a guy who admired Charlie Chaplins look to kill millions. America sometimes ignores its contribution to WWI but our involvement was significant. If anyone is still reading, look up Frank Luke Jr. for a true individual and hero.

[Jimmy W]

and to my beautiful, darling Alisha, I'm not really this boring in person

[tsmirandameadows]

I think I pissed off Christian with my Veteran's Day commentary, so probably best that I not share my thoughts lol.

[EvaCassini]

What did you say?

[Ben in LA]

I salute all veterans as well, especially my father. But...this right here.

[tsmirandameadows]

What did you say?

Essentially that I think "Supporting the Troops" and saying "Thank you for your Service" is really more about assuaging the guilt and shame (of not having had to sacrifice anything over the past 12 years) of the person saying it than about truly thanking and honoring the person so lauded.

The fact of the matter is that after 9/11, we as a people were wounded, hurting, and angry, and we wanted blood for it. We weren't wrong to seek vengeance, in fact I think we were perfectly justified in waging war to accomplish it. But fundamentally, we wanted to taste blood, we wanted to show the world that if you fuck with us, we will hunt you to the ends of the earth to make you pay. And again, I don't think that was unreasonable given the circumstances, and it was certainly a motivation for me pursuing the Army: to be a part of taking vengeance, and in the process enacting justice. But here's the thing: we as a people wanted this -- the left likes to say Bush misled us into war in Iraq, but the reality is that the Bush administration was so swept up in the national mood that they told us what we wanted to hear: that our national villain of the 90s is being bad and now it's are chance to fuck him up. Yet despite our national (and entirely justified) desire for war, only the smallest handful of Americans ever had to shoulder any of the burden of those wars. Nothing was asked of us, and none of us gave anything, except for that small handful who chose to join up or were already in.

Then, the wars went south. As it turns out, vengeance never quite works out the way you want, and pretty soon we found ourselves in the midst of an unfolding Greek tragedy. But rather than confront the horrible truths before us, that we had made an irreversible and horrible mistake, and make a decision to either end the wars or renew our effort to win them, we as a people made the most unconscionable decision imaginable: we chose to ignore them and forget about them, because they made us too uncomfortable. And so we continued to send soldiers off to fight and possible be maimed or killed, all in our name, but couldn't even show them the courtesy of paying attention and remembering that there was a war on. I'm reminded of the line from the great movie Zulu: "The people don't like casualties, for it upsets them at their breakfast." We back at home were upset that war wasn't all nice and pretty and easy, and so we tuned it out. It all faded to the background, and operations in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere were all filtered from our consciousness. Seriously, on a given day, how many times do you think about the fact that we are at war, and that RIGHT NOW there are Americans in combat? I think most of us, unless we are a part of that other 1% who actually is serving or has family serving, would be hard pressed to say we think about it more than once a week.

Personally, I believe this willful desire to ignore the wars we asked for should be a source of great shame for all of us, and that no amount of saying thank you to the veterans who have fought in the wars we have done our best to forget will alleviate that shame. I likewise do not believe that this disconnect of the public from those whom we ask to fight our wars is healthy for our democracy. In Ancient Athens, each spring when the Assembly would gather to debate military affairs, the question of whether and with whom to go to war was a real one: the men speaking and debating the issue were the ones either who would fight the war, or whose sons would fight the war. In Athens, citizens of a democracy did not ask others to fight for them: if the people truly wanted war, then the people needed to shoulder the burden, just like how if the people wanted political power, they likewise needed to shoulder the burden of running government, hence political office by lot. Athens was hardly a perfect democracy, but I do believe they had a healthier relationship with the waging of war than we do: we can demand war, but we by and large don't have to experience the price of it.

Thus endeth the rant. I apologize if I've offended anyone, but this is an issue I'm obviously quite passionate about, and which this particular day has caused me to ruminate on more than I do the rest of the year. Likewise, any use of the word "you" was generic at not meant to refer to anyone in particular.

Oh, and I only said some of this to Christian obviously; this is the full spiel lol. Again, sorry if I've offended anyone, but I wouldn't say this if I didn't think this was something we ought to be thinking about on Veteran's Day.

[GroobyKrissy]

Essentially that I think "Supporting the Troops" and saying "Thank you for your Service" is really more about assuaging the guilt and shame (of not having had to sacrifice anything over the past 12 years) of the person saying it than about truly thanking and honoring the person so lauded.

The fact of the matter is that after 9/11, we as a people were wounded, hurting, and angry, and we wanted blood for it. We weren't wrong to seek vengeance, in fact I think we were perfectly justified in waging war to accomplish it. But fundamentally, we wanted to taste blood, we wanted to show the world that if you fuck with us, we will hunt you to the ends of the earth to make you pay. And again, I don't think that was unreasonable given the circumstances, and it was certainly a motivation for me pursuing the Army: to be a part of taking vengeance, and in the process enacting justice. But here's the thing: we as a people wanted this -- the left likes to say Bush misled us into war in Iraq, but the reality is that the Bush administration was so swept up in the national mood that they told us what we wanted to hear: that our national villain of the 90s is being bad and now it's are chance to fuck him up. Yet despite our national (and entirely justified) desire for war, only the smallest handful of Americans ever had to shoulder any of the burden of those wars. Nothing was asked of us, and none of us gave anything, except for that small handful who chose to join up or were already in.

Then, the wars went south. As it turns out, vengeance never quite works out the way you want, and pretty soon we found ourselves in the midst of an unfolding Greek tragedy. But rather than confront the horrible truths before us, that we had made an irreversible and horrible mistake, and make a decision to either end the wars or renew our effort to win them, we as a people made the most unconscionable decision imaginable: we chose to ignore them and forget about them, because they made us too uncomfortable. And so we continued to send soldiers off to fight and possible be maimed or killed, all in our name, but couldn't even show them the courtesy of paying attention and remembering that there was a war on. I'm reminded of the line from the great movie Zulu: "The people don't like casualties, for it upsets them at their breakfast." We back at home were upset that war wasn't all nice and pretty and easy, and so we tuned it out. It all faded to the background, and operations in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere were all filtered from our consciousness. Seriously, on a given day, how many times do you think about the fact that we are at war, and that RIGHT NOW there are Americans in combat? I think most of us, unless we are a part of that other 1% who actually is serving or has family serving, would be hard pressed to say we think about it more than once a week.

Personally, I believe this willful desire to ignore the wars we asked for should be a source of great shame for all of us, and that no amount of saying thank you to the veterans who have fought in the wars we have done our best to forget will alleviate that shame. I likewise do not believe that this disconnect of the public from those whom we ask to fight our wars is healthy for our democracy. In Ancient Athens, each spring when the Assembly would gather to debate military affairs, the question of whether and with whom to go to war was a real one: the men speaking and debating the issue were the ones either who would fight the war, or whose sons would fight the war. In Athens, citizens of a democracy did not ask others to fight for them: if the people truly wanted war, then the people needed to shoulder the burden, just like how if the people wanted political power, they likewise needed to shoulder the burden of running government, hence political office by lot. Athens was hardly a perfect democracy, but I do believe they had a healthier relationship with the waging of war than we do: we can demand war, but we by and large don't have to experience the price of it.

Thus endeth the rant. I apologize if I've offended anyone, but this is an issue I'm obviously quite passionate about, and which this particular day has caused me to ruminate on more than I do the rest of the year. Likewise, any use of the word "you" was generic at not meant to refer to anyone in particular.

Oh, and I only said some of this to Christian obviously; this is the full spiel lol. Again, sorry if I've offended anyone, but I wouldn't say this if I didn't think this was something we ought to be thinking about on Veteran's Day.

OK, let's discuss.

Personally, I think your argument shows a lack of understanding about what "thanks" is... or, at the very least a misrepresentation of it.

For those of us who do have even a rudimentary understanding of history, you must realize that without the wars that have been fought, as tragic as they are, our lives would be very different. For myself. I'm adopted from S. Korea... which arguably only exists because of intervention from the West, specifically the United States. Without that intervention, my life would be vastly different... even possibly non-existent.

It is that HONEST realization that brings me to say "Thanks" on this day (among others). It has nothing to do with DESERVING... it has everything to do with DECENCY.

And, in the interest of fairness... look at what you wrote. You're doing the exact thing you're accusing others of doing. Writing something that you know is going to be offensive to some, and then offering an apology for it... which you clearly don't mean. You're irritated (upset even?) that people aren't being "real" about offering their thanks on this day... Is your apology about not offending people with what you wrote any more "real" ?

Should I discount everything you just wrote because clearly, you just say things because it is the "right" or "decent" thing to say (I'm sorry for offending... BUT...)?

I agree that some people probably do not offer thanks today based upon a clear understanding of history or personal beliefs as I do, but the vast majority of people out there just recognize it is the decent thing to do to honor people who have given their lives for something THEY believed in... whether it be under orders, rightly, wrongly, or whatever the reason.

[GroobyKrissy]

Here is another way of looking at it...

Thanks is not earned... it is given. It is a response... not an action.

Ruminate on that for a while and extrapolate what that means. I think that should give you a better understanding of why it is the decent thing to do when you send Thank You cards out after Christmas... [EDIT] oh, sorry... The Holidays.

[GroobyKrissy]

I am eating Chinese Food (which I'd probably be eating every day without those damn veterans... maybe I'm coming around), which makes me extra brilliant with its additional Asian boost. So, here is another question for you, Miranda, regarding thanks.

Numerous girls here, on this very board, including yourself I would guess (I can dig up the posts and find them if you would like), have "Thanked" their Fans.

So, do you think about what those Fans have gone through every second... working a job, skipping a meal, maxing out a credit card, to watch you fuck on film (if you don't think at least some of your Fans do this... wake up to reality)? I would guess you do not spend large amounts of your day thinking about your Fans... and neither does anyone here... even me.

Does that make your "Thanks" any less valid? No. It comes out of an immediate (read: present) internal realization that the collective actions of said Fans have enabled you some measure of success.

OK, back to wonton soup.

[LilyRox]

I thank my fans and communicate with them as much as I can, but it's never enough.