Is Israel an evolving facist state?

[Prospero]

Well I am not Jewish and I take offence at Benedict's remarks. Taking a few extremists and tarring a whole people or nation. Pretty slim evidence though not untypical of the "anti zionists"

[Benedict1991]

You didn't think I knew that someone named Blumenthal writing about Israel is also Jewish? In fact, the fact that he's Jewish probably makes people use what he says more liberally than if he were not.

I have a hypothetical for you. Two Jews. One says that Israel is an evolving fascist state. The other says that Israel is not an evolving fascist state. Who do you quote? Well, naturally, any Jewish person making a statement about anything related to Jewish interests must be believed, so how do you mediate this?

In law there is a certain type of hearsay that is admissible because it has indicia of correctness. An admission against a party opponent is thought to be likely to be reliable because who would say something incriminating about themselves unless it were true?

You are taking this rule of thumb to an impractical limit by inferring that any Jewish person saying anything against an ethnic interest must be believed. Bottom line: It doesn't make Max Blumenthal's argument more compelling that he is Jewish. The only reason I stated that I am Jewish was to give you some context for my offense at your comments.

So if a Christian or a Muslim is particularly offended by something negative about their respective religions means what? You think you get special treatment?


You were crying about a certain level of harshness and the use of "evolving" to say that it needs to be discounted because it may or may not be empirically provable. What is the point of writing an opinion piece at all? Then there would be very little one could write in the realm of international relations and security because a lot of if hinges on what MAY happen if certain conditions continue or change, rather than what IS happening under static conditions.

[Benedict1991]

and dear Benedict more of your neo-racist spewings and you'll find yourself rather more significantly blocked, old fella

I don't mind if you block me, I would rather not converse with a guy who thinks it's okay for one group to be supremacist. Especially when the same guy claims to be against racism and supremacism in other nations and ethnicities.

Please block me from reading my posts. I'll gladly ignore you too. In fact, I'll start right now!

[broncofan]

If you had stopped to read the articles before commenting, you would see that I just supplied the source that the other was commenting on, unless you consider a legitimate Israeli news site antisemitic too.

.

What the articles say is different from the conclusions you draw from them. You have said that Jewish people believe non-Jews are animals. How is it that I have met thousands of Jews, had intimate conversations with many of them, spent more than a dozen years in a synagogue and never heard this? This must be an aberrant view of extremists and not something a significant number of Jews believe.

Of course you are anti-semitic. This thread has been here for weeks and nobody implied that any of the posters are anti-semitic until you came on here making claims about "chosen people" and Jews believing non-Jews are sub-human.

[broncofan]

Then there would be very little one could write in the realm of international relations and security because a lot of if hinges on what MAY happen if certain conditions continue or change, rather than what IS happening under static conditions.

I've rebutted every serious attempt at an argument you've made. A lot hinges on what may happen. But do you know what they call it when people speculate about the future? Prediction. Prognostication. You can make this same argument about any nation if you are not bound by description and can instead indict people and nations for what may come to pass.

If a Muslim or Christian feels members of their religion are being demonized by a bigot, and they express their objections, I think most would tend to empathize with them. There was a thread a while back where a moron like yourself was expressing vitriol towards Muslims and nobody agreed with him. What you have said about Jewish people is not mere criticism, it consists of hyperbolic lies.

[broncofan]

I don't mind if you block me, I would rather not converse with a guy who thinks it's okay for one group to be supremacist.

Did he say it was okay for one group to be supremacist? No. He said he disagreed with your conclusion that Jewish people are supremacist. Why is it that you are not able to make a single honest statement?

[Stavros]

Did I say that was the "slam dunk" no of course not. It's just one of many pieces.

I think it's very funny that supposed defenders of human rights suddenly have cold feet when it comes to criticizing little Israel. It just would not be polite to offer the same critique as to other nations. Some nations are more equal than others.

And yet as I have pointed out in other posts some of the most tenacious, indeed vicious critics of Israel have been Israelis. If you have read the literature you will know that the Labour party dominated Israel from 1948 to the elections in 1977, that the British Labour Party supported it because it was a fellow member of the Socialist international and there was a view that Israel in its early days was -dare I say it- an 'evolving' socialist state -ever heard of a Kibbutz? The concept of Moshav? Yes, the governments of Israel since 1977 have for the most part had their roots in the anti-Socialist revisionist movements of Jabotinsky, and yes Avraham Stern was an admirer of Mussolini -all that tells you is that it is possible to be a Jew and be a socialist, a fascist, a liberal, a nationalist, a serial killer, an entrepreneur -heavens, just like everyone else. The singularity you are searching for in 'Jewish' society doesn't exist, not in Israel, not in the USA or anywhere else.

And yes it is perfectly right to criticise the Netanyahu government for its policies toward the Bedouin of the Negev, West Bank settlements, hypocrisy on nuclear weapon in Iran, and so on. But you can't dismiss the entire country and it is not written in stone that Israel will forever be ruled by extremists. Israel doesn't have the political leaders it deserves, because the best minds in Israel don't go into politics but business, science, the arts -we are suffering in the UK from a paucity of intelligence in our own politicians, it is hardly unique to Israel.

[Stavros]

Israel is a democracy. The only one of any functioning note in the Middle east. It's present dominant ideology may well be distasteful. But it is NOT a fascist state. Look up fascism Benedict. It's a word far too easily thrown around. Zionism and Fascism are not synonyms.

There are democratically elected governments in Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq and Turkey if you class the latter as a Middle Eastern state; no more perfect or imperfect than Israel where a party can become part of the government with less than 10% of the vote on a low turnout. There is nothing democratic at all about Israel's occupation of the West Bank.

[Prospero]

I stand corrected. Thanks Stavros - though I would exclude Turkey.

However I don't think democratic is a word that is relevant to the occupation. I see where you're coming from though.

[Stavros]

I should also have included Iran. Not sure what your query is on democracy on the West Bank which as far as the current Israeli government is concerned is part of Israel which means there is no occupation. If it isn't occupied but part of Israel then Israel's democracy should apply to the whole area; it doesn't.