Is Israel an evolving facist state?

[Benedict1991]

Anti-zionism is often a mask for anti-semitism. Which is what I discern in Benedict's postings.

The presence of extreme right wingers does not mean a nation is evolving into a fascist state.

Don't know where he hails from but it is worthy also pointing out that the US and UK among others also had "cosy" relations with South Africa.

Did I say that was the "slam dunk" no of course not. It's just one of many pieces.

I think it's very funny that supposed defenders of human rights suddenly have cold feet when it comes to criticizing little Israel. It just would not be polite to offer the same critique as to other nations. Some nations are more equal than others.

[Prospero]

Arrant nonsense... criticism of Israel is fine, but get your facts right .... but then it is Jews you are criticising so that is okay.

[Prospero]

Sources benedict.... you are making some very serious and anti-semitic claims

[Benedict1991]

And where do you, benedict, get the notion that Jews see others as animals or not born with the "same level of soul." Quote your sources please ...

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.566021
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/5...&cat=404&loc=1
This man has passed on.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Secur...-his-own-words
Important settler rabbi.
http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/Art...006385,00.html

[broncofan]

You don't have to be observant, only in your heart if you believe that non-Jew are animal or not born with the same level of soul, then you can do just about anything.
Then you must be censored and ostracized. No one can speak ill of the chosen people, eh?

It is nearly an intrinsic aspect of religion that you believe you have a near monopoly on what is right. I have been surrounded by Jewish people my entire life and have never heard another Jew refer to a non-Jew as an animal. Only one time in my life have I heard a Jew refer to a non-Jew as a goy, and it was my cousin making a joke behind someone's back and I told her I thought what she said was highly inappropriate.

When you say "chosen people" you are doing what many anti-semites do when they imply that this means Jewish people think they are superior. I have heard it stated repeatedly by every Jewish organization who has weighed in on the issue that this means Jewish people are "burdened" to follow certain practices and are not privileged. In fact, this has been the interpretation for hundreds of years.

Let me point out that when I criticize Christianity, I try to put it in the context of my criticism of religion in general. And that is that theoretically, if you feel you need to follow a doctrine written thousands of years ago purporting to be the word of God, it is difficult to decide when it is acceptable to depart from it. It is fairly easy to tell the difference between a criticism of the core practices of members of a religion and attempts to malign members of one specific religion by singling it out and accusing its members of devaluing all other human life.

Anyhow, the original post was based on an article in a major periodical. Though I don't agree with the argument, the article was based on a book written by Max Blumenthal and tried to advance its argument without resort to gratuitous abuse. There are ways to discuss these issues if you do not have an axe to grind that are not so crude and transparent.

[Benedict1991]

But would it be acceptable to call Hungary a fascist state because of the presence of Jobbik as a minority party in their political system?

The reason the phrase evolving fascist state is being used is so that you can divorce yourself entirely from the definition of fascism. They have not reached that point but you say they are on their way so you do not have to make any argument that is empirically correct. Then you can make a few vague allusions to Judaism, supremacism, and apartheid.

Most Jewish people do not mind reasoned discussion of the many faults of the government in Israel. I don't mind. It is the intentional use of overblown language, intentionally divorced from actual meaning, that sounds quite a bit like demonization.

And before you say that you knew you would be called anti-semitic for what you said, let me say that I knew you would say you knew you would be called anti-semitic. You cannot pre-empt someone who has seen your shit a thousand times before.

I would also have you know the use of evolving is due to the title and the man wondering if Israel is evolving into a fascist state is a Jew himself of an illustrious lineage. There is a fork where humanist Judaism has changed and evolved away from traditional or orthodox Judaism. This debate on what is authentic Judaism has been going on for hundreds of years, now that Israel exists, this contest will be played out more and more.

[broncofan]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.566021
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/5...&cat=404&loc=1
This man has passed on.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Secur...-his-own-words
Important settler rabbi.
http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/Art...006385,00.html

If you can take the statements of individual Jews and use them to represent core beliefs of Jewish people, you can literally make any argument you want. Could I quote an individual imam to make the argument that all Muslims dislike Jews? Or how about an individual Christian to claim that all Christians want to go on a crusade against Muslims?

Even the sources you list have a subtext that you ignore, which is that the comments made are controversial and appalling. Since you didn't bother to read any of the articles you link, let me just quote for you:

"His conservative stance negated a ruling widely accepted by rabbis, which states that sperm donated by a non-Jew is preferable to that of an anonymous Jew, who might pose a genealogical risk."

The widely accepted view of these Rabbis is that they would prefer "animal" sperm to be injected into women rather than that of Jews whose identity is unknown. Sort of contradicts the point you are trying to make.

[Prospero]

One of those links was in Hebrew. You read Hebrew? As for the others - well a handful of extremist religious bigots is not representative of Judaism as a whole, any more than al-Queda represents the politics of mass of Moslems or the Taliban the religious beliefs of islam or the ludicrous fanatics of the Christian right represent Christianity.

[broncofan]

I would also have you know the use of evolving is due to the title and the man wondering if Israel is evolving into a fascist state is a Jew himself of an illustrious lineage.

You didn't think I knew that someone named Blumenthal writing about Israel is also Jewish? In fact, the fact that he's Jewish probably makes people use what he says more liberally than if he were not.

I have a hypothetical for you. Two Jews. One says that Israel is an evolving fascist state. The other says that Israel is not an evolving fascist state. Who do you quote? Well, naturally, any Jewish person making a statement about anything related to Jewish interests must be believed, so how do you mediate this?

In law there is a certain type of hearsay that is admissible because it has indicia of correctness. An admission against a party opponent is thought to be likely to be reliable because who would say something incriminating about themselves unless it were true?

You are taking this rule of thumb to an impractical limit by inferring that any Jewish person saying anything against an ethnic interest must be believed. Bottom line: It doesn't make Max Blumenthal's argument more compelling that he is Jewish. The only reason I stated that I am Jewish was to give you some context for my offense at your comments.

[Benedict1991]

One of those links was in Hebrew. You read Hebrew? As for the others - well a handful of extremist religious bigots is not representative of Judaism as a whole, any more than al-Queda represents the politics of mass of Moslems or the Taliban the religious beliefs of islam or the ludicrous fanatics of the Christian right represent Christianity.

If you had stopped to read the articles before commenting, you would see that I just supplied the source that the other was commenting on, unless you consider a legitimate Israeli news site antisemitic too.

Is that the way you operate huh? Not reading any links and going into full spin mode immediately? Maybe it's best just to block you or ignore you, I don't want to waste time on a spin artist.