Shaming men attracted to Trans Women...

[Ben in LA]

Wow...I started a great thread!

[robertlouis]

Janet is awesome. A unique girl.

Arguably the most compassionate and rational advocate for transwomen anywhere.

[robertlouis]

Because of some good stuff in my past, I have a number of trans friends who don't escort and live what you would define as normal lives as best they can. In that sense they are no different from my gay and heterosexual friends.

But the reality of trans life that both Wendy and Miranda have shared passes most of us by - the daily self-doubt, the fear of being denounced by family or friends, the crushing lack of self-esteem and above all the certainty that your body in no way reflects the person that you know yourself to be. It's a hell of a life.

What Janet Mock's article points out is that, despite gradual and in some cases dramatic gains for the T element of LGBT, there are still entrenched vested interests in the media, politics and, more sadly, in certain racial and religious demographics which are too ready to condemn, preach hatred and thereby implicitly condone the ongoing violence and prejudice against trans people.

This latest incident is just the tiniest tip of a huge iceberg.

[azamet]

I think of these girls as a girl with a benefit, How many guys have had a gg finger his ass while getting a blow job? A sexy ts with a cock is just a little bigger than a couple fingers! and sometimes the Ts is a lot sexier!

[CaptainPlanet]

I agree. Men who are attracted to transsexuals and not other men shouldn't be labeled as gay by society. This morning when Mister Cee kept saying he wasn't gay, I understood where he was coming from but most people didn't because all they saw was him having a fetish of being sucked off by a guy who likes to dress in women's clothes.

I don't know what it'll take to change the perception of a guy being gay because he's attracted to transsexuals and not men. Maybe time...

His situation is a bit different, being the public knows this is a guy in a wig, and Cee obviously knew the same. Doesn't take long to distinguish between CD and TS unless your intoxicated, especially if there in your car.

[a994]

BY JANET MOCK.


Guess what? Many men are attracted to women, and trans women are amongst these women.
We, as a society, have not created a space for men to openly express their desire to be with trans women. Instead, we shame men who have this desire, from the boyfriends, cheaters and “chasers” to the “trade,” clients, and pornography admirers. We tell men to keep their attraction to trans women secret, to limit it to the internet, frame it as a passing fetish or transaction. In effect, we’re telling trans women that they are only deserving of secret interactions with men, further demeaning and stigmatizing trans women.
I’ve stood witness to many so-called scandals, mostly published on gossip blogs, where passing interactions with trans women spawn hundreds of headlines, particularly for a man with fame and social capital. Thousands of words have been dedicated to analyzing whether such and such famous man is now suspect, merely because he took a photo with a fan who happened to be a trans woman. This questioning has led many well-known men to adamantly defend their heterosexuality and has tarnished the reputation and careers of others. It sounds like silliness on the surface, but often times when gossip blogs are the public’s only exposure to trans women, it spreads misinformation, validates stereotypes and causes irreparable damage.
When a man can be shamed merely for interacting with a trans women – whether it be through a photograph, a sex tape or correspondences — what does this say about how society views trans women? More important, what does this do to trans women?
This pervasive ideology says that trans women are shameful, that trans women are not worthy of being seen and that trans women must remain a secret — invisible and disposable. If a man dares to be seen with a trans woman, he will likely lose social capital so he must adamantly deny, vehemently demean, trash and/or exterminate the woman in question. He must do this to maintain his standing in our patriarchal society. For a man to be associated with a trans women, in effect, is to say that he is no longer a “real” man (as if such a thing exists) because he sleeps with “fake” women (as if such a thing exists).
The comments and conversations surrounding hip-hop DJ Mister Cee’s sex scandal-turned-resignation has been appalling, and has led me to this essay, which isn’t about him soliciting sex from someone he perceived as a trans woman. The Mister Cee “scandal” sheds light on society’s ignorance, similarly exhibited when Chris Brown, Chingy and Chad “Ochocinco” Johnson took photos with trans women; similarly exhibited when folks gender-policed Joseline Hernandez to the point where she Tweeted a nude photo to prove her cis-ness; similarly exhibited when Eddie Murphy, LL Cool J and a list of other powerful men were accused of being “caught” seeking trans women.
This anti-trans woman ideology is harmful, misogynistic and pervasive and travels way beyond the comments section of gossip blogs, and as Sylvia Rivera once said, “I will no longer put up with this shit.”
I am a trans woman. My sisters are trans women. We are not secrets. We are not shameful. We are worthy of respect, desire, and love. As there are many kinds of women, there are many kinds of men, and many men desire many kinds of women, trans women are amongst these women. And let’s be clear: Trans women are women.
The shame that society attaches to these men, specifically attacking their sexuality and shaming their attraction, directly affects trans women. It affects the way we look at ourselves. It amplifies our body-image issues, our self-esteem, our sense of possibility, of daring for greatness, of aiming for something or somewhere greater. If a young trans woman believes that the only way she can share intimate space with a man is through secret hookups, bootycalls or transaction, she will be led to engage in risky sexual behaviors that make her more vulnerable to criminalization, disease and violence; she will be led to coddle a man who takes out his frustrations about his sexuality on her with his fists; she will be led to question whether she’s worthy enough to protect herself with a condom when a man tells her he loves her; she will be led to believe that she is not worthy of being seen, that being seen heightens her risk of violence therefore she must hide who she is at all costs in order to survive.
When I was a girl finding myself, I was met with similar questions and believed I would never find someone to love me. I had learned that I was unworthy and undeserving, and it took me years to release myself from the shame and stigma society had forced upon me as a young woman. A man’s desire for my body, my brain, my brilliance and my existence is not a laughing matter because I am not a joke.
When I met my boyfriend Aaron and disclosed that I am trans, he did not question his sexuality. He recognized me as a woman, and my being trans did not negate my womanhood. My relationship with Aaron is a rarity, though. Don’t get me wrong, I see our loving partnership as a blessing, but not in the same way others view it. Our relationship is marveled at largely because most people do not believe that a man like Aaron should have to “compromise” his heteronormative social standing by being with a trans woman or a woman who is not “real.”
It is rare for an openly trans woman – no matter how “passable” or attractive she is – to have a man who openly loves her, who has an unabashed desire to be seen with her, who proudly stands beside her — despite the stigma and other people’s curiosities and inappropriate questions. Those questions regarding Aaron’s sexuality are constant and fraught with assumptions that this essay can’t begin to unpack, and for a man less secure it can be difficult navigating these questions, especially if you also perceive the women you’re attracted to as shameful, as less-than-human objects you must keep secret at all costs.
It’s important that we begin truly accepting trans women as who they are, women. We are not objects to have secret sex with, to discard and to laugh at on the radio or the gossip blogosphere. We are worthy of being seen and are not dirty or shameful. Until we begin checking how we delegitimize the identities, bodies and existence of trans women and stigmatize the men who yearn to be with us, we will continue to marginalize our sisters, pushing them further into socially-sanctioned invisibility, left in the dark to fend for themselves with men who are don’t have the space to explore, define and embrace their attraction to various women.

Beautiful, informative article. Now we as a society and as individuals need to do a better job at treating ALL women (regardless of their genitalia) as people. Patriarchy dies hard, unfortunately.

[MacShreach]

I think a lot of men do not understand the huge privileges they have just by being men and cisgendered at that. Transwomen have even less privileges than ciswomen; as they say in Thailand, men first, women second, kathoey (trans)...way down there. And that is in a culture that tolerates transsex.

Cisgendered people never have to worry about going to a public convenience or a shop changing room, marked for their gender, and being thrown out for being in the wrong one. Nobody shouts 'hey fucking guy' when they walk down the street, We don't get held up at airports or refused bank loans because the gender on our documents doesn't fit our appearance, and then of course there's those lovely chaps the guardians of law and order, who routinely abuse transwomen in particular.

Yes, we all have to put up with jerks, but transfolk get ALL the shit that the rest of us only get a part of.

I think, particularly for a woman who has lived as a man before transitioning, and thus had possession of all the male cisgender heteronormative privilege, the whole atmosphere is incredibly undermining and hostile. Even girls living in deep stealth are not immune.

I hate it when guys on here start giving out about what a girl has done to her look, or this or that or oh my lord SRS...You know they have enough to deal with.

Some people think transsex is increasing; I don't. I think it only appears to be increasing. I think where it is suppressed, it goes underground, and where it is supported, it reaches a level and stabilises. Most estimates put this around 1-2%.

So if we love transwomen we have to support them; (and we also have to forgive when they cut loose with their tongues because they've just had it this week).

[a994]

I do think the context of this case is important, because I think the macho ethos of the hip-hop scene and its emphasis on masculinity is not at all helpful to transwomen, or in fact any form of non-hetero-normative expression of gender or sexuality. Like all these expressions of patriarchy, men are sucked in, yet often don't fit.

The fact is that in a lifetime of working in the creative spheres, I have never yet met an artist who was completely 100% straight (including me) simply because creation itself is a feminine function. So art forms that promote really extreme masculinity are a bit like an oxymoron.

re: the first paragraph above: that's one reason why I've never been that big of a hip-hop fan, even in its early '90s heyday of consciousness rap (very little of which even addressed this subject, and the few who did speak publicly about this, like P.M. Dawn, were criticized and even attacked physically for it--all other rappers either openly approving or silent about it)

The second paragraph raises this question: could it be that such art forms are in themselves at least partly a method of justifying participation in the arts in general for men who perhaps believe at some level that "art/music/poetry/etc. is for women and sissies?"

[a994]

Yes, of course society shames men interested in transsexuals because they are ignorant...but ts women shame them too who aren't!

I just don't see how any ts girl calls a man interested in them a fag it's hypocritical. He is attracted to you so are you a FAG?

TS girls have issue if the guys desires another transsexual. If he has dated or slept with another transsexual many hate that too. They need to get over that..women have. It's so silly to me. Most likely if one hot transsexual is good enough another one will be too!

To me those are the transsexuals that need a man to fill their ego. They need that delusion to feel more feminine. That oh he only finds me attractive. I'm special and so on.

Heavenlysin and I were discussing this the other day at dinner. Transsexuals are just too hard on the men interested in us. We also discussed how men who date transsexuals will also be mentally abusive when they are feeling insecure and pick out your flaws on purpose to hurt you. So it's a double edged sword many times..both insecure where they are..so they disrespect one another to bring themselves up.

I just think the shaming needs to stop in general!

Well known tranny chasers are called fags a lot of times cause they had sex with so many and the tgirl feels burnt/used.

If a guy is a bottom he is called a fag by a trans-women.

The list goes on.

Good post Kelly. I've also wondered about the mental stability of those trans-women who call the very men interested in them "queers" and that sort of thing. It certainly shows that these women think very lowly of themselves and of their sisters (after all, if they consider the men who like them to be nothing more than gay men--regardless of sexual practices and genital attraction--then such women evidently consider themselves and their sisters to also be men), aside from running off the very men who might be the loves of their lives--and of course, some men are more serious and willing to commit than others are.

[a994]

I think a lot of men do not understand the huge privileges they have just by being men and cisgendered at that. Transwomen have even less privileges than ciswomen; as they say in Thailand, men first, women second, kathoey (trans)...way down there. And that is in a culture that tolerates transsex.

Cisgendered people never have to worry about going to a public convenience or a shop changing room, marked for their gender, and being thrown out for being in the wrong one. Nobody shouts 'hey fucking guy' when they walk down the street, We don't get held up at airports or refused bank loans because the gender on our documents doesn't fit our appearance, and then of course there's those lovely chaps the guardians of law and order, who routinely abuse transwomen in particular.

Yes, we all have to put up with jerks, but transfolk get ALL the shit that the rest of us only get a part of.

I think, particularly for a woman who has lived as a man before transitioning, and thus had possession of all the male cisgender heteronormative privilege, the whole atmosphere is incredibly undermining and hostile. Even girls living in deep stealth are not immune.

I hate it when guys on here start giving out about what a girl has done to her look, or this or that or oh my lord SRS...You know they have enough to deal with.

Some people think transsex is increasing; I don't. I think it only appears to be increasing. I think where it is suppressed, it goes underground, and where it is supported, it reaches a level and stabilises. Most estimates put this around 1-2%.

So if we love transwomen we have to support them; (and we also have to forgive when they cut loose with their tongues because they've just had it this week).

Good point. Heck, gay men don't catch nearly the garbage that we men who like transwomen do. Of course even so we have it easy compared to transwomen themselves.