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Thread: Stand Up to "Stand Your Ground"
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08-21-2013 #11
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Re: Stand Up to "Stand Your Ground"
And you are missing the underlying point. Despite the claims of the anti-SYG folks, that defense was NOT invoked by the defense before or during the trial.
Had defense counsel wanted to, they could have asked for a pre-trial hearing to address the issue. They didn't. Why? Because Mark O'Mara understood SYG did not apply as there was no ability to retreat.
First... jury instructions are not written by the judge alone, every line in it is scrutinized by both defense & state counsel, challenges issued, changes made. Just as the state will over stack charges of massively over charge (as they did here)... so too will defense throw everything they can at the wall.
Second, if you actually read the jury instructions you see it goes through various different verdicts the jury can reach, as well as various possible ways to achieve that. SYG being one such way to determine if it was justifiable use of deadly force.
And yet it is through such cases that we analyze the law to determine if it is doing it's job or not.
You accuse someone here of flip-flopping... and yet isn't that just what you did there?
As you said, SYG requires 'that confrontations be avoided before they become violent, when possible'... and being a big enough asshole can lead to such a confrontation (just ask TM).
You like many anti-SYG folks seem to think SYG is a license for say... a white person to walk into a black neighborhood, start shouting racial slurs, waiting for the situation to become heated and some local person to get in face of the screamer who suddenly feels threatened and shoots the local.
Like on so many things, your interpretations here are wrong.
Or do you want to claim that Marissa Alexander was wrongly convicted and should have let off because she too claimed SYG?
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08-21-2013 #12
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Re: Stand Up to "Stand Your Ground"
The close-minded amongst us refuse to accept the 'Trayvon doubled back' explanation.
Given the locations & distances involved, it's the only explanation that makes sense... unless we are to believe that GZ is such a fantastic runner that he could catch up to TM despite a good lead of time & distance.
Trish is quick to say things to the effect of "If GZ hadn't done X, or had done Y... then TM would be alive today" and yet never will you hear her say "If TM hadn't doubled back AND punched GZ repeatedly, them TM would be alive today."
But then, what else would you expect from a member of the lynch-mob?
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08-21-2013 #13
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Re: Stand Up to "Stand Your Ground"
what else would you expect from a member of the lynch-mob?
And you are missing the underlying point. Despite the claims of the anti-SYG folks, that defense was NOT invoked by the defense before or during the trial.
And yet it is through such cases that we analyze the law to determine if it is doing it's job or not.
As you said, SYG requires 'that confrontations be avoided before they become violent, when possible'
"...I no longer believe that people's secrets are defined and communicable, or their feelings full-blown and easy to recognize."_Alice Munro, Chaddeleys and Flemings.
"...the order in creation which you see is that which you have put there, like a string in a maze, so that you shall not lose your way". _Judge Holden, Cormac McCarthy's, BLOOD MERIDIAN.
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08-21-2013 #14
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Re: Stand Up to "Stand Your Ground"
It doesn't give somebody a license to kill a random person. The law specifically mentions that you are being attacked by somebody or a forcible felony is happening. The Judge added the SYG law into instructions because Zimmerman didn't have a duty to retreat under Florida law due to SYG. The problem is that Zimmerman couldn't retreat if he wanted to retreat. The action of following isn't an act of violence. Punching somebody then repeatedly punching somebody is an act of violence. Zimmerman didn't claim self-defense under the SYG immunity. He claimed just self-defense from a violent attack.
The group that produced that video are trying to appeal to emotions by using the Martin case. They want to advance their agenda like any other group. My point is that the case wasn't about retreating vs. not retreating because there was no chance for Zimmerman to retreat once the violence began. It is about using deadly force to stop a violent attack on oneself.
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08-21-2013 #15
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Re: Stand Up to "Stand Your Ground"
The right to defend yourself has always existed within the bodies of State law. SGY-laws are not about the right to defend yourself; rather they legalize deliberate armed confrontation, especially in those cases where life is in danger and there remain open avenues to avoid confrontation! These laws encourage and embolden would be vigilante heros to escalate dangerous encounters to violence. Zimmerman was emboldened that fateful night by both Florida’s stand-your-ground law and the firearm concealed beneath his garment. What could go wrong? He’s armed and the laws are on his side, even if he stalks and provokes the target of his attentions. We saw what went wrong. An innocent young man was needlessly killed.
Imagine if you will the following hypothetical dialog.
Jury member 1: You really believe that little Martin kid surprised Zimmerman (who outweighs him by how much?), delivered a knock down punch, lept on top of him and restrained him?
Jury member 2: Yeah, I do. But look, it doesn’t matter even if Zimmerman had an opportunity to retreat, because he has the right in Florida to stand his ground. Either way we have to find him innocent.
Jury member 1 (discouraged from further pursing this line of reasoning since both lead to a finding of not guilty): Oh well.
Of course this is a purely hypothetical dialog. Something like it may or may not have occurred during the Zimmerman deliberations. Something like it may or may not have gone on within the mind of one or more jury members. The point is (whether SGY is invoked by an attoney or not), if the Judge instructs the jury in SGY law, the jury is obligated to consider it. It may be considered and summarily dismissed (as in my example above), or it may be considered more seriously. Either way it is not irrelevant to the deliberations or the direction those deliberations take. In my hypothetical example its invocation discourages a whole line of reasoning and effectively endorses Zimmerman’s account of the evening.
SGY laws embolden brutes, thugs and bullies. And they may truncate appropriate deliberation in the jury room.
Last edited by trish; 08-21-2013 at 08:29 PM.
"...I no longer believe that people's secrets are defined and communicable, or their feelings full-blown and easy to recognize."_Alice Munro, Chaddeleys and Flemings.
"...the order in creation which you see is that which you have put there, like a string in a maze, so that you shall not lose your way". _Judge Holden, Cormac McCarthy's, BLOOD MERIDIAN.
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08-22-2013 #16
Re: Stand Up to "Stand Your Ground"
"You can pick your friends & you can pick your nose, but you can't wipe your friends off on your saddle."
~ Kinky Friedman ~
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08-22-2013 #17
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Re: Stand Up to "Stand Your Ground"
Liar. He was found not guilty, there is a difference. One is an option for the jury, the other is generally not (despite a request from Mark O'Mara during closing).
You say that... yet you and others invoke the TM case as a justification to abolish SYG.
Yet you were discussing things related to the case, playing the "If GZ had just obeyed the 911 operator and stayed in his car" card.
No, it's calling a spade a spade. The lynch mob (of which you are a long standing member) wasn't able to get it's head through the legal system... and now you look for other targets to unleash your rage upon.
You accuse me of diversion... then you say things like that? Are you trying to embarrass or discredit yourself? Oh right...
Worse... you are clearly engaging in some projection... something we often see from the anti-gunners who live in a near constant fear that someone, somewhere might be carrying a gun... all the while claiming the paranoia to be on the side of those who do carry... yet we don't call people who carry live insurance or have a few bottles of water in a closet paranoid.
You claim you saw it, yet you keep having to have things pointed out to you which you refuse to comprehend.
You really need to read up on the concept of 'pattern jury instructions'... where a Judge more or less plays copy & paste with instructions related the charges (and lessor charges (if applicable)). In a case like this where self defense is raised (vs "you have the wrong guy!"), said instructions are also pasted... only then do the arguments begin.
Not directly, but your comments here keep suggesting otherwise.
I did then, and I re-read it today. Yes it does. Maybe you just aren't used to reading legalese, or legalese simplified for jurors.
Clearly you didn't read (or comprehend) the paragraph in question. Allow me to break it down for you.
While I would call it grammatically sloppy, the first part of the sentence boils down to "If GZ was acting legally" (which all indications say he was), while the next part says "then he has no duty to retreat".
Given your feelings that SYG is a license to be an asshole and kill anyone you want... sure a shame that the home owner in this case was such an asshole... maybe if he wasn't he wouldn't have had the chance to shoot and kill someone in his own home (which is part of SYG): http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/20/justic...html?hpt=hp_t2
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08-22-2013 #18
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Re: Stand Up to "Stand Your Ground"
Wait... you were there? You saw what happened? Why weren't you called to testify for the prosecution?!?!?!
Clearly this oversight on their part is another example of the outright incompetence involved!
Again... you seem to have evidence I do not recall being presented at trial... care to cite which witness I missed and what testimony they gave to that effect? Do please avoid citing Rachel Jenteal who ruined much of her credibility on the stand by admitting while on the stand that she had lied repeatedly about the facts of the case.
Um... clearly you have not looked at what the area looks like. The dead-end is where GZ was going. Based on where his body was found, TM had instead turned earlier and then stopped prior to reaching the house where he was staying while GZ would have returned to his car from the dead end... coming near to the place where TM was killed.
It's unfortunate that the term 'lie' has gone from meaning "knowingly attempting to deceive" to "saying something that I disagree with".
Granted... I tend to expand the original definition to include apparent willful ignorance of facts... under neither the original nor my broadened definition can anything I have said here be called a lie... or do you have some specific evidence you wish to pose?
... not that it matters much as GZ was found not guilty despite the best attempts of the left in this country to lynch him, it would seem to be that the facts are on my side.
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08-22-2013 #19
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Re: Stand Up to "Stand Your Ground"
Liar. He was found not guilty, there is a difference.
You say that... yet you and others invoke the TM case as a justification to abolish SYG.
The lynch mob (of which you are a long standing member)
You accuse me of diversion... then you say things like that?
we don't call people ... paranoid.
I did then, and I re-read it today. Yes it does.
"...I no longer believe that people's secrets are defined and communicable, or their feelings full-blown and easy to recognize."_Alice Munro, Chaddeleys and Flemings.
"...the order in creation which you see is that which you have put there, like a string in a maze, so that you shall not lose your way". _Judge Holden, Cormac McCarthy's, BLOOD MERIDIAN.
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08-22-2013 #20
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Re: Stand Up to "Stand Your Ground"
In some ways yes, but generally very limitedly. Only recently did Ohio make it legal to defend yourself against illegal police actions, an right which exists in few states.
Skagway, AK?
Société Généalogique de l'Yonne?
Suomen Geoteknillinen Yhdistys?
Suomen Gynekologiyhdistys?
[quote=trish;1381264]laws are not about the right to defend yourself;
Liar!
You really like making things up, don't you?
Do you have to try to be this deceitful? ... or does it come naturally?
Liar!
SYG generally requires the shooter to be in a place they can legally be, and not having instigated the events which lead to the death.
Again, running around a mostly black neighborhood screaming "White Power!" and shooting the first black person to raise an objection will not be allow the shooter to walk.
Really... I trust you have specific evidence to support that claim? That countless people who have claimed SYG, in the moments or minutes leading up to their usage of lethal force thought to themselves "good thing I live in a stand your ground state! I can do crazy things, kill someone and not have to worry!"
Is that any different than the fact you rape Nicaraguan children for fun?
See how easy it is to make things up or make assumptions?
Again, you have ZERO evidence of what you claim and still you make these statements.
As a person who legally carries from time to time... I'm actually more cautious and less emboldened when I am carrying... because I know the potential legal ramifications if I even draw my weapon... regardless of the final outcome.
"What could go wrong? That Nicaraguan kid was asking for it... and despite a treaty in place, I don't think they'd extradite me." -Trish
Wait... you were there too? Good god! All of these people on HA who just happened to be watching the events that night and somehow were not called to testify!!!! Who would have thunk it.
The rest of your hypothetical post is just that... hypothetical nonsense. You lost in court and now you are trying to win in state houses across the country.
Bad news... you will lose there too, doubly so with the new CDC report (ordered by Obama in the wake of Newtown) which actually contradicts many of the claims of the anti-gunners out there.
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