The Best of British

[Stavros]

A Telegraph journalist has compiled a list of 30 of the 'Greatest Living' in Britain which ranges from Brenda to Brucie (the Greatest Living Entertainer??? but do read on), to David Hockney (Painter, allegedly) and Hilary Mantel (writer, of turgid drivel). Without even a nod and a wink to a generation of outstanding musicians who can play Bach, Beethoven and Bliss from memory, the award goes to David Bowie-Knife, without explaining what this musical anorexic has achieved, if anything, other than notoriety. And apparently the writer thinks the Greatest View in Britain is from Westminster Bridge in London, which rules out some of the most breathtaking scenery that can be found in Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales, not to mention (lump in throat time) the White Cliffs of Dover -and St Paul's Cathedral the Greatest Building? What about York Railway Station?

As for the Greatest Living British Transexual -he chickened out at that one. Guess it's a toss-up between...

But then it is the Telegraph...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/t...f-British.html

[Prospero]

Were you on the list Stavros - as the man with the most dogmatic opinions?

I do agree that Bowie is hardly the greatest living musician ... good grief... of that Brucie should be on the list. But Hockney and Mantel certainly do not deserve your curt and abrasive dismissal (even though I'd agree that mantel is NOT the greatest living writer) . Nor St Pauls - though I'd rather list Durham or Salisbury as great cathedrals ... of even, dare i say it, westminster Abbey.
Ian McKellan... good grief.... and Maggie Smith.... and I wonder how Norman Foster feels about missing out on top architect.... and Richard Curtis best screenwriter.... that is preposterous.. greatest novel... Birdsong. For christ's sake....

and great song... Hey Jude! oh well..... all of which makes you wonder how they come up with such a bizarre list.

So then who would be the greatest transsexual?

[danthepoetman]

Well, Stavros, he's probably on the money for Stephen Hawking as the greatest scientist, and I would give him credence for naming Edimburgh as the greatest city, because I'm enamoured with a certain product coming from Scotland. But I will admit that I don't know many of these names. So I might not be competent to comment here.
Then again, I would agree that Bowie as the "greatest musician" is somewhat weird. Don't you have a certain Sir Yehudi Menuhin in the UK? He's not too bad on a violin. I must have listened 200 times to his Beethoven Violin concerto, but it might only be me... And Maggy Smith as the greatest Brittish actress? Hrm... She's great indeed, but I always felt she could be a little stiff at times; and there's also Julie Christie, Vanessa Redgrave and Charlotte Rampling -who plays in both French and English. A bit arguable also, naming Ian McKellen as the best actor. There's Anthony Hopkins, Daniel Day-Lewis, Michael Caine, Jeremy Iron and a few other...
A strange "category" would certainly be the "greatest member of the royal family"... I'm not too sure I get this one. Prize goes to the queen, but you wonder if it wouldn't be Lady Diana, would she still be around...
Greatest playwright Allan Bennet. I admit I don't know him. I have a particular liking for the great Harold Pinter's plays and poetry, to name one more out of my mind. But what about Bill Shakespeare? Am I misunderstanding? Is it about living personalities only?
Greatest fictional character, not Dracula, Mr Hyde or Frankenstein among others, but Bond, James Bond. Weird.
Greatest song "Hey Jude"!!!!! Like most of the Beatles songs, it's shopping mall music!

[Prospero]

Dan... it's "living" so that rules out Pinter and Menuhin ... and obviously shakespeare

[danthepoetman]

It breaks my heart.

[Stavros]

Prospero, I do not have dogmatic opinions, they are shaped after much consideration and reflection. I have, for example, changed my views of writers such as Kipling, whom I dismissed for years, but now appreciate. Same with the sculptor William Turnbull, and in film Bill Douglass, whose work I didn't empathise with when I first saw his films.

Both Wolf Hall and Bring out the Bodies are twice, even three times as long as they need to be, while her views of the Tudors are without insight, hinged on worn-out platitudes, and written with the originality -but not the excitement- of a laundry list.

Dan -surprised you haven't heard of Alan Bennett, although you are not missing much, and anyway most his work has been for the theatre or tv; and there are fine actors (in most countries, not least the USA) whose skills in the theatre are superior to their work on film -I don't go to the theatre much these days, but when I did I was an admirer of Alan Howard, who was a spellbinding Achilles in Troilus and Cressida at the RSC with Helen Mirren (as Cressida) and Patrick Stewart (Ajax) -I saw Maggie Smith in Bergman's production of Hedda Gabler but didn't like her or Bergman's production; on the strength of A Midsummer Night's Dream alone,Peter Brook has been our most consistently challenging man of the theatre, even if he hasn't lived here for a long time; Pinter is over-rated, as are most contemporary British playwrights. It is a brave man who these days rates anyone over Judi Dench, she has been superior to Smith for a very long time, her Chekhov still sends shivers up and down my spine.

And so on.

Have no real idea on British transexuals, which is why I said it was a toss-up...

[danthepoetman]

I agree about Peter Brook, from what I know of him. Just great. What do you think about Mike Leigh? I'm asking of course because I haven't seen his plays, from which a lot of good was said. But I loved several of his movies! Great director, to me.
And I do admit that Pinter might have been given more credit than he might deserve. He's not as deep as often said to be, but he's so witty, funny, and has a great sense of punch, if you see what I mean, in both plays and poems. It's not great "litterature", but being North American, I guess I'm letting myself be seduced -over and over again- by the way he delivers the goods, so to say. In this poem I love, for instance:

Message
Harold Pinter


Jill. Fred phoned. He can't make tonight.
He said he'd call again, as soon as poss.
I said (on your behalf) OK, no sweat.
He said to tell you he was fine,
Only the crap, he said, you know, it sticks,
The crap you have to fight.
You're sometimes nothing but a walking shithouse.

I was well acquainted with the pong myself,
I told him, and I counselled calm.
Don't let the fuckers get you down,
Take the lid off the kettle a couple of minutes,
Go on the town, burn someone to death,
Find another tart, giver her some hammer,
Live while you're young, until it palls,
Kick the first blind man you meet in the balls.

Anyway he'll call again.

I'll be back in time for tea.

Your loving mother.

[Prospero]

Stavros - don't take umbrage. I was noting your absolute dismissal with caustic asides usually, of those you judge to be unworthy.

Of course - these lists are wholly subjective. And any nomination of the greatest this or that is, invariably, a mic of personal preference and judgement. While I agree that Wolf Hall and bring up The Bodies are probably turgid (I only ventured into the opening pat of the first as the Tudors bore me anyway) her earlier book on the french Revolution "A Place Of greater safety" was a great read as was the novella "Nine(?) months on Ghazzah Street." She is hit and miss and scarcely worth judging the best. But who is then? It is a hard call since writer also embraces biography, non fiction and poetry.

In your long and considered opinion then Stavros who would you nominate as the great living british artist? Sure Hockney is hugely popular - but i think for good reason. Certainly for me a favourite because his work is celebratory and positive and beautiful rather than a meditation on darkness, suffering and ugliness.. Once the jury would have chosen Freud or bacon... but who today? One of the YBAs?

And so forth... greatest playwright Tough.... I'd probably go for Tom Stoppard. But then there is David hare? Edward Bond? What is "greatest' Most skilled? Most moving?. Most popular? Most acclaimed? Truly none can hold a candle to Chekhov (or Strindberg or Ibsen or Tennessee Williams. ) But living is the essence. Great living internationally might be David Mamet... or Athol Fugard (is he still living?) Until his relatively recent death Arthur Miller would have qualified - but not on the strength of anything he wrote in later years. And so on....

[alpha2117]

Look all of these lists are opinion pieces and almost everybody has variations in their opinions to everybody else. Most of the choices make sense - dont neccesarily agree but they do make sense. The Queen, Attenborough, Branson, Redgrave, Curtis, Hawking, Bowie, Hockney,, McKellan, Smith these are all people who I know - not just vaguely - I specifically know who they are and what they do. Thats a pretty significant achievement because It's not like I pay a heck of a lot of attention to British news or culture. Those people have made a mark that transcends the whole cheap 15 minutes of fame thing that permeates culture nowadays. Bowie was very influential to music through the 70's and 80's and I think the effects of his work are still very much being felt still today - I'd have probably said McCartney if you were looking at a pop or rock figure but as I said opinions always vary. It's just a article designed to get people thinking - it's not even written in a way that indicates that anyone need agree - it's just the writers opinion.

Oh and I've seen McKellan on stage - trust me when I say that there aren't many people who can command an audience the way that guy can. He's a smallish man but he seems to loom large on the stage. The guy really is freakishly talented when you see him let loose. Stage is really where you can tell the difference because with multiple takes cuts and editing most people can cobble together a good performance on tv and film but on stage it's a one shot deal.

[Stavros]

Of course - these lists are wholly subjective. And any nomination of the greatest this or that is, invariably, a mic of personal preference and judgement. While I agree that Wolf Hall and bring up The Bodies are probably turgid (I only ventured into the opening pat of the first as the Tudors bore me anyway) her earlier book on the french Revolution "A Place Of greater safety" was a great read as was the novella "Nine(?) months on Ghazzah Street." She is hit and miss and scarcely worth judging the best. But who is then? It is a hard call since writer also embraces biography, non fiction and poetry.

In your long and considered opinion then Stavros who would you nominate as the great living british artist? Sure Hockney is hugely popular - but i think for good reason. Certainly for me a favourite because his work is celebratory and positive and beautiful rather than a meditation on darkness, suffering and ugliness.. Once the jury would have chosen Freud or bacon... but who today? One of the YBAs?

And so forth... greatest playwright Tough.... I'd probably go for Tom Stoppard. But then there is David hare? Edward Bond? What is "greatest' Most skilled? Most moving?. Most popular? Most acclaimed? Truly none can hold a candle to Chekhov (or Strindberg or Ibsen or Tennessee Williams. ) But living is the essence. Great living internationally might be David Mamet... or Athol Fugard (is he still living?) Until his relatively recent death Arthur Miller would have qualified - but not on the strength of anything he wrote in later years. And so on....

I will try the Mantel then, the earlier works. I don't rate any of the playwrights mentioned, particularly Stoppard and Bond -I do think Pinter is the finest playwright we had after 1945, I just can't connect with his later plays, and was not aware of that astonishing -characteristically vicious?- 'poem' Dan has quoted. The contribution that English musicians have played in the restoration of what is called 'early music' is far and way more important and durable than anything produced by popular culture, be it the now-defunct Clerks of Oxenford, or the Consort of Musicke and many other groups and individuals. An acquired taste in a niche market, but culturally significant if, for example, you want to know what music was like in this soon-to-be saturation obsession with The Tudors.

Bridget Riley is the artist I have been following since her retrospective at the Hayward in 1971 I think it was. The exhibition was a revelation (to me) in the use of paint and structure within a confined space, nevertheless suggestive of infinity; the transition from the black and white paintings in the lower ground to the colour paintings in the light above was sensational. Although her later work is disappointing, I prefer her work to Howard Hodgkin and Patrick Heron, by way of reference to British abstract painting.

What I cannot decide for myself is buildings -perhaps for personal reasons if I think about it, libraries often score highly, while the greatest view may be the most subjective of all, and be seen from the windows of a train or one's bedroom.

What I can say is that while I like the inside of the Queen Elizabeth Hall and the Purcell Room, I would like the whole of the South Bank Complex in London, including the National Theatre, to be torn down, it is a disaster. That the NFT used to be tucked away under the stairs may say a lot about the status of cinema in Britain as an art form, yet the design of the Complex seems to me to be hostile to the pleasure of human perambulation.