The Koch Brothers and climate change

[an8150]

First principles an8150? C'mon then,enlighten us.

There are issues here far more worth talking about than silliness over avatars. I am sure you can find a freemarket objection to an easter island head if you choose to.

I think Stavros has effectively shown your ideas to be spurious, naive and - thankfully - unlikely ever to see any true realisation in the real world. Enjoy your idealism.

Which just goes to show that we can scarcely blame free market capitalism for the ills of the world.

[an8150]

[quote=Stavros;1269748]

free market capitalism....free market capitalism...free market capitalism...however many times I repeat it, I feel nothing. Fivekatz pointed out how the barons who screwed up their own firms and trashed jobs and economic stability walked away with millions. Perhaps someone can confirm that if, at the other end of the ladder in free market capitalism, somebody is not participating in this wonderful world of free competition, say because they are illiterate, lost their arms and legs in a road accident or a war, have a drink problem, or didn't save enough for their retirement -that basically, they are useless and should be, as it were, 'dismissed'? It might not match the eugenic solution to impurity practised by the Nazi's, but somehow I feel that free market capitaism might be separating out winners and losers in not so different a way...what did Whitaker Chamber say was Ayn Rand's response to losers? To the gas chambers, go...

Only big government funds gas chambers...

[hippifried]

Capitalism, as a financial system, consistently tries to consolidate to the point of monopolization. That's anathema to a free market.


To whomever... Just out of curiosity:
Were the Nazis actually fascist, or did Hitler just jump on the nearest bandwagon?

[an8150]

"Capitalism, as a financial system, consistently tries to consolidate to the point of monopolization"

Uh-huh. On this side of the pond, we have a joke: why is there only one monopolies commission?

There's no punchline.

[broncofan]

Were the Nazis actually fascist, or did Hitler just jump on the nearest bandwagon?

This is a good question. I bet you get more learned answers than mine. There were some unique aspects of Nazi ideology that can be separated from other forms of fascism. On the other hand, from what I understand about fascism, it provides an advantage in implementing many of the Nazi policies. A highly bureaucratic government unconcerned about the rights of the individual is ideal when wanting to create the military machine Hitler needed to expand into an empire and to crush the "untermensch".

Fascism seems to provide a very good organizational structure for carrying out all sorts of demonic tasks without having to be unduly concerned with dissent. So perhaps fascism is the vehicle rather than the message?

[broncofan]

"Capitalism, as a financial system, consistently tries to consolidate to the point of monopolization"

Uh-huh. On this side of the pond, we have a joke: why is there only one monopolies commission?

There's no punchline.

Economics jokes are my favorite. Got any applied physics jokes?

[fivekatz]

On can have free market capitalism and still have sensible regulation. In fact the greatest lesson form the financial markets collapse in 2008 was that regulation is required. If the CDO's were transparent, many investors would have invested elsewhere.

And taxation holds it's place as well. While the GOP had a lot of fun with the poorly crafted "you did not build it", it is true that much of the infrastructure that makes a free market work is built by the community through taxation.

And most of all we have this uniquely American problem that we believe in taxation to maintain massive standing armies BUT find it objectionable to defend our citizens from disease.

Anything taken to the extreme, Ayn Rand was extreme. And Alan Greenspan who is a disciple of Rand's ended up finding just that out. Free markets without oversight will eventually be manipulated by greed and hurt a lot of people.

What the Wall Street guys did in 1990's right up to today (London Whale) is n laughing matter, the hurt and in many cases destroyed people's lives. For all the right wing in the US denounces Obama as this great socialist, the lack of prosecutions and the weakness of the finanicial reforms are actually quite surprise considering the system should have and still may meltdown.

[an8150]

On can have free market capitalism and still have sensible regulation.

[no, you can't. that's the whole point. it's like saying you can get a little bit pregnant]

In fact the greatest lesson form the financial markets collapse in 2008 was that regulation is required [so in addition to never having heard of the architect of the holocaust (some Jewish ancestry, btw) you've never heard of the SEC or FSA. genius]. If the CDO's were transparent, many investors would have invested elsewhere.

And taxation holds it's place as well. While the GOP had a lot of fun with the poorly crafted "you did not build it", it is true that much of the infrastructure that makes a free market work is built by the community through taxation.

And most of all we have this uniquely American problem that we believe in taxation to maintain massive standing armies BUT find it objectionable to defend our citizens from disease.

Anything taken to the extreme, Ayn Rand was extreme. And Alan Greenspan who is [was; they renounced each other and he became a disciple of cheap money and central banking which is, incidentally, a government monopoly] a disciple of Rand's ended up finding just that out. Free markets without oversight [which planet are you living on, because I want in?] will eventually be manipulated by greed and hurt a lot of people.

What the Wall Street guys did in 1990's right up to today (London Whale) is n laughing matter, the hurt and in many cases destroyed people's lives. For all the right wing in the US denounces Obama as this great socialist, the lack of prosecutions and the weakness of the finanicial reforms are actually quite surprise considering the system should have and still may meltdown.

How do you suppose 'big to fail' became a catch-all for so many western financial institutions?

[an8150]

Economics jokes are my favorite. Got any applied physics jokes?

No, but otherwise it's a laugh-a-minute in the an8150 household.

[fivekatz]

So I suppose you never heard of Brooksley Bourne and how she was shutdown by Greenspan, Rubin and Saunders, when she warned that there was not oversight of CDO's and Synthetic CDOs and that the level of toxic assets were too high? The transactions were in the dark, the banks did not even know how much they were holding, and nobody knew how much of the securities were backed by AIG.

And where the heck are you coming from bring up the holocaust in a conversation about free markets and if there is the need to bridle that?