Mass Shooting at DK premiere in CO!

[shaustin]

But you do have a Constitution and Laws, and these instruments have attempted to regulate the purchase of firearms because over the years it has been realised that some people are not trustworthy with them. You have a Standing Army paid for by taxes, just as you have police forces which means: you have dedicated, and armed organisations to guarantee your security. What you need to address are the causes of crime, because the relatively easy availability of firearms in the USA means gun-related crime is more common than it is, for example, in the UK. Instead of starting with the end result, try working on what causes crime. Limiting the availability of guns is one way of changing the profile of, and the fatal element in crime, that is what I think you are reluctant to engage with.

That right there negates the majority of what followed. The CAUSE of a crime....to be honest, I don't recall a criminal ever answering the question "Why'd you do it?" with "Because I had a gun of course.". Holding a gun doesn't cause a person to suddenly want to commit a crime. The TRUE causes for crimes are much deeper in the majority of cases. Which is actually why I dislike all the gun opposition in this thread, the focus that SHOULD be placed on the real cause is all being thrown into a gun debate. It takes understanding, empathy, insight, and a mentality unclouded by hate in order to weed through the facts and find a true cause for a case such as this.

[trish]

Maybe all the people who hate guns so much should grow a fucking pair and just say what they SHOULD be saying if they're truly so afraid. ALL guns should be abolished.

Don't hate guns. I own three hunting rifles. Not afraid either. It's the people who feel the need to carry that are afraid and insecure. But I do resent the increased degree of risk to my security that comes with hundreds of insecure assholes all around me carrying concealed firearms.

I don't recall a criminal ever answering the question "Why'd you do it?" with "Because I had a gun of course.".

But that is one of the most common reasons given for murder, it just goes under the name of temporary insanity. "I was enraged...the gun was right there...so I shot her." It's also the reason for many accidental killings. "We were just messing around and the gun went off." You see, GUNS DO KILL PEOPLE.

[Dino Velvet]

Can we all agree putting an instrument that causes mass damage in the hands of a person so damaged(perception or reality) is never sound strategy?

[Stavros]

Can we all agree putting an instrument that causes mass damage in the hands of a person so damaged(perception or reality) is never sound strategy?

Yes, of course. But how does someone in a shop determine if the person who wants to buy is a mass murderer? Psychopaths by definition can conceal the simmering hatred and violence in them, and appear to be cool, calm, and collected. I think this is why the issue of regulation is more important than the debate on ownership in the USA. There are probably more people organised to promote or oppose gay marriage than are united for gun control. It is and has been one of the most intractable issues in the US that I can think of.

[Stavros]

That right there negates the majority of what followed. The CAUSE of a crime....to be honest, I don't recall a criminal ever answering the question "Why'd you do it?" with "Because I had a gun of course.". Holding a gun doesn't cause a person to suddenly want to commit a crime. The TRUE causes for crimes are much deeper in the majority of cases. Which is actually why I dislike all the gun opposition in this thread, the focus that SHOULD be placed on the real cause is all being thrown into a gun debate. It takes understanding, empathy, insight, and a mentality unclouded by hate in order to weed through the facts and find a true cause for a case such as this.

Can I suggest you look at the figures and explanations for the decline in gun-related crimes in Washington DC since the 1990s? A key cause of such crimes was the crack cocaine epidemic and turf wars among the dealers. One part of the decline was harsh policing; but another was the generation who watched their parents and elders getting shot when zonked out of their brains who decided to 'just say no' -thus the market for crack cocaine declined, and with it the gun-related crime: cause and effect. Has gun ownership in Washington DC declined? I don't know, but its use in crime does seem to have.

[shaustin]

But that is one of the most common reasons given for murder, it just goes under the name of temporary insanity. "I was enraged...the gun was right there...so I shot her." It's also the reason for many accidental killings. "We were just messing around and the gun went off." You see, GUNS DO KILL PEOPLE.

Accidents happen, if you mess around with ANY potentially lethal device the results are gonna be the same. The route problem right there is uneducated stupidity. If your going to have a weapon in your home, you secure it, and if you have children, you inform them of the severity that comes with such an ownership. There should never be an excuse such as "We were messing around with a loaded weapon.", not because if the gun was never there it wouldn't have happened, but because the owner and/or the person doing the fooling around obviously failed in life as inteligent and responsible human beings.

As for crimes of passion and temporary insanity, once again, I agree that in a number of cases there would be times when the ease of using a firearm would increase the chances of the crime to be commited, but it's impossible to say for sure that in the majority of such instances a person would not turn to a less effective weapon if they were already at the point to take another's life. And to me, the vast majority of such plea's are thinly veiled attempts to disregard personal liablity. People ALLOW themselves to be taken away by rage and fear and other emotions in most of those cases. Just because you allow your mind to act instead of think, doesn't mean you were incapable of thought. In times of stress and turmoil, people tend to give in and block out judgement. A choice made subconciously is still a decision reached upon by the individual, it is a part of them, not some temporary madness that infected them and then left.

[Dino Velvet]

Yes, of course. But how does someone in a shop determine if the person who wants to buy is a mass murderer? Psychopaths by definition can conceal the simmering hatred and violence in them, and appear to be cool, calm, and collected. I think this is why the issue of regulation is more important than the debate on ownership in the USA. There are probably more people organised to promote or oppose gay marriage than are united for gun control. It is and has been one of the most intractable issues in the US that I can think of.

That's not so easy. Looking for a little common ground first in this discussion. There is no simple answer.

People that work in gun shops are not the best judges of character either.

[Queens Guy]

Maybe the problem is how we deal with, or ignore dealing with, mental illness in the U.S.

The gunman who shot at Rep. Giffords in Tuscon, AZ, the gunman who shot up Virginia Tech, and this guy were all mentally ill. (And this guy even went to a Medical School, which all have Psychiatrists on staff.)

Everybody realized these men were troubled. They all should have been under psychiatric care. For their own good. Gun Permits are not an absolute right, even in the most 'gun friendly' parts of the U.S. They are never given to people who are mentally ill. The most devout 'gun advocates' don't think mentally ill people should possess firearms.

So why not create a better system to report mentally ill people so they can't get gun licenses? Create some kind of 'psychiatric hold' that shows up on the background check. Or to pull the permit from somebody who already has one.



Should

[shaustin]

Can I suggest you look at the figures and explanations for the decline in gun-related crimes in Washington DC since the 1990s? A key cause of such crimes was the crack cocaine epidemic and turf wars among the dealers. One part of the decline was harsh policing; but another was the generation who watched their parents and elders getting shot when zonked out of their brains who decided to 'just say no' -thus the market for crack cocaine declined, and with it the gun-related crime: cause and effect. Has gun ownership in Washington DC declined? I don't know, but its use in crime does seem to have.

That's actually kind of along the lines of what I was trying to point out. In that situation the crack is the actual cause of the gun crime, not the guns themselves. If all the energy that was focused by the citizens and the police was on getting rid of guns and not the crack, the true cause behind the crime would still be prevailent.

[trish]

Accidents happen, if you mess around with ANY potentially lethal device the results are gonna be the same.

"OH NO,We were just messing around and I accidentally stabbed my buddy through the heart with a Bowie knife. I didn't know it was loaded!!" Yeah, right.

As for crimes of passion and temporary insanity, once again, I agree that in a number of cases there would be times when the ease of using a firearm would increase the chances of the crime to be commited

I would add the adjective, "effectively". The presence of a firearm not only increases the chance that a crime of passion will be committed but increases the chances the it will be committed effectively and more likely to result in murder rather than battery.