John Wayne vs Clint Eastwood

[Stavros]

Are we moving towards a "Your favourite westerns" thread?

My top five:

Tombstone
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
The Ballad of Cable Hogue
Unforgiven
Stagecoach

Apart from being an eclectic list (none of the Dollars films?) the difficult question about westerns concerns the definition of a cowboy. Most westerns are either set during or after the Civil War, and many seem to have as their theme the vexing issue of land settlement in the prairies and the west, a major part of the capitalist economy which, together with the increasingly industrial economy of the north, meant that the slave economy of the south was an obstacle to economic progress in the US. The most eloquent film that emphasises the importance of private property for 'ordinary folk' against cattle barons and, crucially, first nations, is Shane.

Most cowboys were slaves, which is why most westerns are built on a lie, unless you read the western as anything but a cowboy film but as some moral tale about power. If John Ford's The Searchers is possibly the most important 'cowboy' film ever made, it is because it is, fundamentally, about the identity of America. But in those classic tv series' like Rawhide, Wagon Train, The Virginians, Laramie, and the gay one -Bonanza- none of the cowboys are slaves, and in fact I can't recall seeing many/any black people in them anyway.

[Prospero]

I agree with Stavros - it is difficult to define "western'. Would "Brokeback Mountain" qualify? (Boring film that it is) or "Heaven's Gate' which is hugely underrated. (I've seen the full five hour cut)

[Dino Velvet]

Any Sergio Corbucci fans here?

Django 1966
Navajo Joe 1966
The Hellbenders 1967
The Mercenary 1968
The Great Silence 1968
Compañeros 1970

[robertlouis]

I agree with Stavros - it is difficult to define "western'. Would "Brokeback Mountain" qualify? (Boring film that it is) or "Heaven's Gate' which is hugely underrated. (I've seen the full five hour cut)

That's true. No Country for Old Men? Another one to test the definition.

As for the Leone films, I'd put Once Upon a Time in the West ahead of the Dollars films and The Outlaw Josey Wales before them too.

Of Wayne films, The Shootist, The Searchers, Rio Bravo. But The Shootist stands head and shoulders above the others.

I've included one Peckinpah (Cable Hogue) but you can't ignore The Wild Bunch.

[Dino Velvet]

Fans of Spaghetti Westerns need to see this.

Amazon.com: The Spaghetti West - An IFC Original Documentary: Ferdinando Baldi, Sergio Corbucci, Alex Cox, Damiano Damiani, Clint Eastwood, Ennio Morricone: Movies & TV@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516XCKabgdL.@@AMEPARAM@@516XCKabgdL

[Dino Velvet]

I've included one Peckinpah (Cable Hogue) but you can't ignore The Wild Bunch.

Pat Garret & Billy The Kid is a different kind of Western but still a good Peckinpah film. Bring Me The Head Of Alfredo Garcia has a Western-like setting. Love the scene where Warren Oats gets the crabs.

[robertlouis]

One thing to remember about the Spaghetti westerns is that most of them were made in the central deserts of Spain which made credible and much cheaper alternatives to Texas and Mexico, but they were also made at a time when Franco's fascist regime still had its brutal stranglehold on the country.

Morally dubious to say the least. I remember my parents wouldn't take us to Spain till after the democratic reforms of the late 70s precisely because of their opposition to Franco - one of my dad's schoolteachers had been killed fighting for the Republicans during the Spanish Civil War.

[Dino Velvet]

One thing to remember about the Spaghetti westerns is that most of them were made in the central deserts of Spain which made credible and much cheaper alternatives to Texas and Mexico, but they were also made at a time when Franco's fascist regime still had its brutal stranglehold on the country.

True. I remember Eastwood speaking on that in an interview. Think it's on the doc I mentioned above.

[Stavros]

Any Sergio Corbucci fans here?

Django 1966
Navajo Joe 1966
The Hellbenders 1967
The Mercenary 1968
The Great Silence 1968
Compañeros 1970

Django is the best-known I think of this list, although I haven't seen any -clearly Dino your knowledge of film is in some genres greater than most! I looked up The Great Silence to find Klaus Kinski character is called Loco!

Years ago I knew someone who was obsessed with martial arts films and rated The Fate of Lee Khan as one of the greatest ever made, although I don't believe it is available in any form (not in the UK anyway).

[Merkurie]

"Red River" is one of Wayne's best performances. And the first scene where Wayne stakes his claim on the land his builds his empire from goes right to the point Stavros makes: the western is a myth created to re-imagine the recent history of America.

The racial facts are usually glanced over, but if you look closely at alot of westerns after the 50s you see Indians, mexicans, anglos shacking up. Blacks and Chinese in the background and more than a few"half breeds" (Steve Mcqueen, Charles Bronson, Marlon Brando played such characters) and "The Searchers" was really all about, rape, sex and prejudice.