Should Greece leave the Euro?

[hippifried]

Greece isn't leaving the EU. Nobody's going to kick them out either. They're merely leaving all this austerity nonsense that the bigs have been trying to shove down their throat. That shit doesn't work. It's never worked anywhere at any time, & there's no reason to think it ever will. It's a straight path to poverty that nobody ever climbs out of. Greece doesn't trade in drachma anymore & they're not going back. Who's going to force any of this shit? The Brits? They're an economic basket case, hoping against all odds that they can keep bullshitting the rest of the world into thinking that the pound is a legit currency. How about the Germans? What are they going to do? Take their ball & go home? Dump the euro & go back to the mark? Yeah right, like they wouldn't collapse. Who else? Oh that's right. They're the only ones promoting this stupid idea.

[markyboy21]

The debate is about Greece leaving the Euro not the EU. However, I agree that the austerity measures are not working, they are too severe for the Greek economy, yet the EU wants to turn the thumbscrews even more before another bailout. As for forcing the issue, this might inadvertantly be done by the UK. Labour are mooting the idea of a referendum on continuing the UK's membership of the EU, but I think the Tories will not risk Labour offering a referendum first and will beat them to it. The mood in the UK is becoming increasingly Eurosceptic, as in times of austerity people pay more attention to monetry facts, and where the EU is concerned the facts are not good reading for the Europhiles. The accounts for the EU haven't been signed by the auditors for 15 years, as they have said that they will be commiting fraud if they do, so it therefore difficult to obtain figures on what each country pays into the EU. The last figures I saw were in the run-up to the last UK election won by the Tories, which showed net payments for the UK of £5.9m, £3.9m for Germany (which has 50% more people than the UK) and £0.3m for France (therefore the UK paid 20x as much). As for the usual argument that the UK would not survive without being able to export to the EU, well we import more than we export to them (similar to Norway), so they need us more. Incidentally the country with the highest quality of life in the world is Norway and Switzerland is 6th and both are outside the EU.

[Stavros]

I agree markyboy21, particularly on the scandal of the EU's unaudited accounts, surely itself a criminal act? But only up to a point. I think there are short term and longer term issues which threaten to unravel the European project -the scale of Greece's debt and the failure of two bail-outs has been compounded by an inconclusive election. The major concern must be to avoid a run on the banks in Greece and also Spain, because so much money has been locked into debt re-cycling at a time when austerity is the dominant ideology. The politics is closer to Hippifried's view that Germany and France will move heaven and earth to maintain the Union, including Greece's membership of the Euro, although I don't know how they are going to do it unless some wizard comes up with a plan nobody had thought of before.

The longer term issue is Scotland -if Scotland opts for independence, it makes England more rather than less dependent on the EU, but Scotland could also break up if the Islands believe their future is best linked to Scandinavia, presumably the Welsh would rather be independent in Europe than England's little helper. What has begun as a crisis created by a lack of financial regulation at a time when everyone was borrowing money they often could not afford to pay back, has led us into a minefield in which the break-up of the UK looks more likely than the break-up of Europe: or maybe I am too pessimistic about the eventual referendum in Scotland.

Does anyone have new ideas on any of this?

[markyboy21]

Your right about the possible breakup of the UK, which is why the EU wanted England to have regional assemblies as well as Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, to reduce the chance of the UK exiting the EU. I don't see the benefits of breaking up the union, if the countries are ruled by Brussels instead of Westminster, they just become smaller fish in a bigger pond. I think there will be a run on the banks you mentioned whatever happens, but it will be better sooner rather than later, and also in a controlled and expected manner.

[loveboof]

The Brits? They're an economic basket case, hoping against all odds that they can keep bullshitting the rest of the world into thinking that the pound is a legit currency.

How is the pound not a 'legit currency'?

[loveboof]

Shocking that that bloke cannot back up his opinion... Maybe he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about? ... maybe. lol

[hippifried]

Shocking that that bloke cannot back up his opinion... Maybe he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about? ... maybe. lol

The pound has no backing whatsoever & isn't a reserve. It's just another commodity that's worth exactly as many euros, yen, or yuan that you can talk somebody into trading for it. There's no there there. The only people who care about the pound are those who are stuck using it, & those who are taking a risk holding it & hoping it doesn't crash before they can dump it for real money.

[robertlouis]

The pound has no backing whatsoever & isn't a reserve. It's just another commodity that's worth exactly as many euros, yen, or yuan that you can talk somebody into trading for it. There's no there there. The only people who care about the pound are those who are stuck using it, & those who are taking a risk holding it & hoping it doesn't crash before they can dump it for real money.

But what, if anything, is the alternative for the UK? Right now and for the foreseeable future we're well out of the Euro. Granted the pound isn't a reserve currency, but attaching its fate to the Euro is a pointless exercise, similarly with the dollar. Until, and goodness only knows when that will be, there is a full realignment of reserve currencies when the global financial system has returned to a healthy equilibrium - which may not be in the lifetime of anyone posting on HA - the only sensible course for the UK is to remain independent on the status of its currency.

Until the dollar starts to shadow the yuan, of course.....

[hippifried]

I don't know about you, but I remember the end of stable currencies. I can date it for you. August 15, 1971 was the day the dollar was debased by executive fiat at the behest of European powers (led by the Brits) who had been systematically attacking it through the peg to gold for several years. 25 years of stable worldwide growth came to a screeching halt. It took a couple of years to make everythibng official, but currencies have been floating in some phantom etherial "market" for the last 40 some odd years & the world has been caught in the artificial inflationary spiral that came along with it ever since. I can't speak for other currencies, but the dollar is worth about 7 or 8 cents, maybe, compared to the day before the Nixon shock. Since there isn't one single currency in the world that's on th rise, the way you make money in the phantom "market" is to lay bets on the rate of decline, & hope you can trade through fast enough to stay ahead. The whole thing's a fraud. Money's not a commodity. You're buying & selling money? Really? With what? The alternative for the UK is the same alternative for everybody. Repeg the currencies. & this time, leave gold & other artificial non-currencies with no intrinsic value out of the mix.

[loveboof]

The pound has no backing whatsoever & isn't a reserve. It's just another commodity that's worth exactly as many euros, yen, or yuan that you can talk somebody into trading for it. There's no there there. The only people who care about the pound are those who are stuck using it, & those who are taking a risk holding it & hoping it doesn't crash before they can dump it for real money.

Well that's all pretty meaningless since the fractional reserve banking system precludes anything other than an arbitrary valuation of all currency.

By simple definition, the pound is no less 'legit' than any other currency. Actually, is the pound sterling the worlds oldest currency still in use today? That could technically make it the most 'legit' - subjective terms, open to interpretation...

(and as it stands, the amount people have been 'talked into' trading the pound for is more than the worth of a single euro, yen, yuan, or dollar. Bizarre)