17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?

[fastingforlife]

[QUOTE=giovanni_hotel;1147845]Look, I was a HS jockhead and IAA college athlete in track and even at 230# it would be hard for me to kill another man by dropping bombs on his face.

Not to diss, but to flippantly suggest a 158# kid has the wherewithal, intent or even ability to kill a grown man with his bare hands is just crap.

The reason you hear of so few cases of one man beating another to death in the news is because for the most part it's almost impossible to do.
The instances of someone Trayvon Martin's size beating someone to death are IMO even more rare.

Even Floyd Mayweather would have to work to kill a man with his bare hands. After assuming this pro boxer would knock out a random in a street fight, he would have to keep pounding on this guy who's unconscious, breaking his own hands in the act, for about five minutes and hope the victim choked on his own blood, or somehow managed to crack this guy's skull with his knuckles. Again, almost impossible to do.

You must think very highly of your fighting skills to think as a 17 year old you could have used just your fists and killed another man who outweighed you by 40#.

I've 'play fought' wrestlers before in HS who I outweighed by 50-60#, and I know those dudes aren't going to box. They're gonna try to choke your ass out or twist your arm off and break it.

Trayvon had no special fighting skills. Just a kid who freaked out because he was being stalked.[/QUO

I believe that Trayvon was likely strong enough to hurt another person with his fists. However, Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter, as the "stand your ground" requirement was never in place, he was never at risk of being killed. This was a bullshit fight, that probably would have ended in another 30 seconds had Zimmerman not pulled out his gun.

How about, just hitting Trayvon with the gun, or shooting him in the arm....why the chest?

[giovanni_hotel]

Agreed, I do believe if Zimmerman had never pulled his gun, the fight would have ended soon after with both of them still alive.

[broncofan]

Look, I was a HS jockhead and IAA college athlete in track and even at 230# it would be hard for me to kill another man by dropping bombs on his face.

Not to diss, but to flippantly suggest a 158# kid has the wherewithal, intent or even ability to kill a grown man with his bare hands is just crap.

The reason you hear of so few cases of one man beating another to death in the news is because for the most part it's almost impossible to do.
The instances of someone Trayvon Martin's size beating someone to death are IMO even more rare.

Even Floyd Mayweather would have to work to kill a man with his bare hands. After assuming this pro boxer would knock out a random in a street fight, he would have to keep pounding on this guy who's unconscious, breaking his own hands in the act, for about five minutes and hope the victim choked on his own blood, or somehow managed to crack this guy's skull with his knuckles. Again, almost impossible to do.

You must think very highly of your fighting skills to think as a 17 year old you could have used just your fists and killed another man who outweighed you by 40#.

I've 'play fought' wrestlers before in HS who I outweighed by 50-60#, and I know those dudes aren't going to box. They're gonna try to choke your ass out or twist your arm off and break it.

Trayvon had no special fighting skills. Just a kid who freaked out because he was being stalked.

I think you underestimate the damage that can be done by being repeatedly struck with concussive blows and having your head slammed against concrete.

That said, I think that Zimmerman's actions precipitated the entire sequence of events. He was an untrained man following around a 17 year old teenager with a concealed weapon. At the worst, Trayvon overreacted and attacked someone who was basically stalking him. If every 17 year old who would react this way were to end up dead then we would have a real problem in this country. If every time I reacted with anger at an overzealous "authority figure" I were to be facing the business end of a firearm, I'd be dead a hundred times over.

BTW, I'm just saying that I think hypothetically Trayvon probably had the physical strength to kill someone if he was determined to do so. I don't think that George Zimmerman was ever in that kind of danger. I think his discussions with the police department show that he had already come to the conclusion that Trayvon was a criminal even though he hadn't seen him do anything wrong. Once he was confronted with a physical situation he probably saw himself justified in using his gun. Racial profiling plus a man who thinks he has the sanction of the law to kill someone he is fighting with. Of course he didn't and there's a real problem with those who think they do. Self-defense only applies to those who aren't the initial aggressors and who use the minimum amount of force necessary to protect themselves. I think it's manslaughter at the least.

[broncofan]

There's obviously a big problem with the gun issue, but I think another issue that needs to be emphasized is Zimmerman's behavior before the incident. Vagrancy laws in this country have been ruled unconstitutional because they are void for vagueness and vest too much discretion in the hands of those enforcing the laws. These laws basically allowed police officers to arrest people who were walking around without any clear purpose or who were "loitering".

I think Zimmerman's first words to Trayvon were, "what are you doing here?". People shouldn't have to justify what they're doing to police officers, let alone overzealous wannabe cops. The main issue is that an untrained civilian thought it was law enforcement to follow around a teenager because he "looks suspicious."

[fastingforlife]

Does anyone know Zimmerman's history with firearms? How long had he had a permit? How much training had he received? Did he carry a weapon all the time?

Also, can you get a permit to carry a tazer in Florida? If so, why didn't he have one? Why wasn't he carrying pepperspray? I just don't understand going nuclear as his only option. He must have known he was tangling with a kid, right?

[buds]

[quote=fastingforlife;1147849]

Look, I was a HS jockhead and IAA college athlete in track and even at 230# it would be hard for me to kill another man by dropping bombs on his face.

Not to diss, but to flippantly suggest a 158# kid has the wherewithal, intent or even ability to kill a grown man with his bare hands is just crap.

The reason you hear of so few cases of one man beating another to death in the news is because for the most part it's almost impossible to do.
The instances of someone Trayvon Martin's size beating someone to death are IMO even more rare.

Even Floyd Mayweather would have to work to kill a man with his bare hands. After assuming this pro boxer would knock out a random in a street fight, he would have to keep pounding on this guy who's unconscious, breaking his own hands in the act, for about five minutes and hope the victim choked on his own blood, or somehow managed to crack this guy's skull with his knuckles. Again, almost impossible to do.

You must think very highly of your fighting skills to think as a 17 year old you could have used just your fists and killed another man who outweighed you by 40#.

I've 'play fought' wrestlers before in HS who I outweighed by 50-60#, and I know those dudes aren't going to box. They're gonna try to choke your ass out or twist your arm off and break it.

Trayvon had no special fighting skills. Just a kid who freaked out because he was being stalked.[/QUO

I believe that Trayvon was likely strong enough to hurt another person with his fists. However, Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter, as the "stand your ground" requirement was never in place, he was never at risk of being killed. This was a bullshit fight, that probably would have ended in another 30 seconds had Zimmerman not pulled out his gun.

How about, just hitting Trayvon with the gun, or shooting him in the arm....why the chest?

Because when you shoot you shoot to kill

[trish]

If he shot to kill, then he had intent to kill. Doesn't sound like a good defense.

[DaveinBoston]

Wow.. there are some pretty strange opinions here...

There is nothing illegal about Zimmerman following someone through his condo complex parking lot. I can follow anyone I want as long as I'm not on someone's private property. (Think otherwise? Think paparazzi)

At one point, one engaged the other. Who put his hands on who first is the one in the wrong. It's doesn't matter if Zimmerman was following him. If Trayvon hit him first, it's his fault. If Zimmerman grabbed Trayvon, then it's Zimmerman who's in the wrong.

Trayvon's own father said the voice on the 911 tape WAS NOT his son and he was 100% positive. Witness statements have changed drastically.

You can conjecture all you want but bottom line is, there are two people who know EXACTLY what happened that night and one of them is dead. You will never have a verdict that satisfies both sides.

The racist whites think Martin was a hood. The racist minorities think Zimmerman the racist.

The Black Panthers put a bounty on Zimmerman. Could you image if the races were reversed and the Skinheads put a bounty out? WOW

Hopefully, what ever comes out the public rests and no one else gets hurt.

[trish]

Who put his hands on who first is the one in the wrong.

You're assuming there was only one person in the wrong and there was only one offense to be wrong about. If you shoot and and kill an unarmed person when your life is not in danger, then you may be found guilty of murder regardless of who laid a hand on who first.

[broncofan]

Wow.. there are some pretty strange opinions here...

There is nothing illegal about Zimmerman following someone through his condo complex parking lot. I can follow anyone I want as long as I'm not on someone's private property. (Think otherwise? Think paparazzi)

At one point, one engaged the other. Who put his hands on who first is the one in the wrong. It's doesn't matter if Zimmerman was following him. If Trayvon hit him first, it's his fault. If Zimmerman grabbed Trayvon, then it's Zimmerman who's in the wrong.

Trayvon's own father said the voice on the 911 tape WAS NOT his son and he was 100% positive. Witness statements have changed drastically.

You can conjecture all you want but bottom line is, there are two people who know EXACTLY what happened that night and one of them is dead. You will never have a verdict that satisfies both sides.

The racist whites think Martin was a hood. The racist minorities think Zimmerman the racist.

The Black Panthers put a bounty on Zimmerman. Could you image if the races were reversed and the Skinheads put a bounty out? WOW

Hopefully, what ever comes out the public rests and no one else gets hurt.

You're confusing the issues. Of course what the Black Panthers did was wrong. But Zimmerman is still probably guilty. First of all, one doesn't have to do something illegal to be a first aggressor.

Second of all, one of the definitions of reckless, which is used as the mental state for manslaughter and even depraved heart murder, is to consciously disregard an unjustifiable risk. Following around an unarmed man with a gun is the definition of risk creation.

So, while the independent act of following someone around may not rise to the level of stalking (an illegal act in some states), it can be used to demonstrate recklessness, which would foreclose the argument of justification.

Even if Trayvon Martin committed unlawful assault, this would not justify shooting him dead. It would probably not even justify shooting to maim or injure him.

Finally, perhaps you should quote the person you think is expressing "strange opinions" and actually present a cogent counterargument.