Your heart tells you God exists.

[fred41]

LOL..if I had to rate this debate so far on points...well let's just say it's incredibly one sided.

[EvonRose]

No, I don't and if you check the post you'll find I explicitly aimed my criticism at faith and explicitly exempted spirituality.
You suggest organized religion is the specific danger to society; I argue ungrounded faith (organized or not) is dangerous simply because faith is a poor guarantor of truth, and standing steadfast behind false beliefs can seriously undermine the rights and happiness of others.

I disagree, faith had taught many believers that life has meaning and purpose and one soul is precious therefore to have respect for life. Without it people were just barbarians back then. no respect for life, survival of the fitess. You are not all knowing to say its false belief, Like I said history has its share of religious prosecution its not just the organized religion who has done it! All around the world! Cant carry that chip on your shoulder and blame all the injustice on all who choose to have faith.

[trish]

I'm not blaming all injustice on faith; far from it. There are a thousand and one causes and motivations behind the world's injustice. Ungrounded faith in false premises all too often numbers among those causes and motivations. You can't know when your faith has been put into a false and hurtful belief. That is why it is good practice to at least try to test the veracity of one's beliefs with reason and observation.

[EvonRose]

I'm not blaming all injustice on faith; far from it. There are a thousand and one causes and motivations behind the world's injustice. Ungrounded faith in false premises all too often numbers among those causes and motivations. You can't know when your faith has been put into a false and hurtful belief. That is why it is good practice to at least try to test the veracity of one's beliefs with reason and observation.

No, organized religion is used as a tool for injustice only in the western countries, in asia social injustice has got nothing to do with religion. Many atheistic asian countries have used money, and power and leadership as a tool for social injustice, you only know about western organized religion because you live here, that's not the case everywhere else...

[trish]

Once again, I'm not blaming all injustice on ungrounded faith in false beliefs. Indeed, I recognize many causes and motivations for injustice...sometimes including...yes...religion of the unorganized variety. And yes, non-belief is no guard against injustice. Even well intentioned actions based on the best evidence and the best reason will sometimes result in injustice. I'm simply saying well intentioned actions based on reason and evidence will have a better record than well intentioned actions based on faith without grounding in reason and evidence. I think that's just obvious. I really don't know from whence comes all the resistance. Of course faith with reason and evidence is no longer called faith, it's simply the best set of conclusions that can be currently drawn from reason and evidence. Which (to come full circle) is why Dawkins admitted he wasn't 100% certain of the non-existence of gods.

To part friends, and since my posts have come full circle, I'll make this my last post in this particular thread. Good night Evon and anyone else still up and reading. You're a lovely person and I enjoyed exploring this topic with you and all the others who were engaged by the conversation.

[martin48]

That's it did? Shame - it was just getting to enjoy the circular arguments. I'm sure you are both lovely

[robertlouis]

That's it did? Shame - it was just getting to enjoy the circular arguments. I'm sure you are both lovely

Me too. I have a problem with the notion of "faith" in its religious context, as it requires an unquestionable and unshakeable belief in something for which there is no empirical evidence. Human beings have evolved to a large extent and created the complex technology-driven world we live in because they have the innate ability to question and challenge.

On the other hand, there's Ganesh, the Hindu god of hospitality and joy. He's also an elephant, and the representations of him are beautiful. How cool to worship an elephant god.....

[muh_muh]

But that doe snot make it untrue.

Yes it does, cf. trish's post.

Why? because its unfair for everyone that lives in your society to abide by your beliefs, if you believe in gay marriage not everyone should. Nor should they allow it in their community if they do not want to, if you don't like the law of the land move somewhere it fits you. Or better yet, become the president legalize gay marriage in all 51 states, and see if you won't stir any chaos or mad religious group breaking and burning things down... It's not that easy.

OK this is getting silly; and retarded to be perfectly honest.
First of all everything that trish said, secondly every democracy worth having has an equality clause somewhere in its constitution. With the US (I'm not terribly familiar with your bloody constitution so it took me a while to find it) it appears to be the 14th amendment.
"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States"
In other words any laws resticting marriage to a certain demographic are illegal under the constitution.

[traLika]

Aaaaaggggggh, I've just woken up and the debate goes on...

Evon, I don't hate you. Regarding your earlier request, I'm not gonna bring out a bunch of minor points that would end up with us going around in circles just like you did with Trish. Internet forums are full of opinionated so-and-sos who sometimes get on each other's nerves. That's the way of the world. You'll just have to take what I said on faith. Oops, what have I just said…

[yodajazz]

Me too. I have a problem with the notion of "faith" in its religious context, as it requires an unquestionable and unshakeable belief in something for which there is no empirical evidence. Human beings have evolved to a large extent and created the complex technology-driven world we live in because they have the innate ability to question and challenge.

On the other hand, there's Ganesh, the Hindu god of hospitality and joy. He's also an elephant, and the representations of him are beautiful. How cool to worship an elephant god.....

I think that the unprovable elements of a religion, are proven by the concrete results of the behavior of the followers, within their own communities. I believe, by observation that people treat others with kindness, generousity, and so forth. Also within each community you have people testifying how their faith has help them through trying times. Thus the unprovable tenets are, justified by concrete, behaviors in the followers.

Tha major issues seem to come about, in how the religious community treat outsiders; those that do not share their core beliefs. If one examines the cause of major issues of conflict, from those communities against others, its more about power and control from leadership, than anything else. If you look at the actions of some religious leaders urge of their followers, you will find them to be in direct opposition, to teachings they are supposed to follow. Islam is a prime example. The Prophet stated that one should not hurt, non-combatants, such as women, children and the elderly. This would clearly rule out the tactic of suicde bombings in public places. (Even though there is probably a story of some exception, in the Hadith. In such a case, it should clearly be understood the case would be an exception, when the rule is stated clearly.)