Fast and Furious

[onmyknees]

I recall several months ago when I first posted about Fast and Furious, Obama Ass Kissers ( and you know who you are) laughed wildly about the absurdity of my contentions....In fact, one big ass kisser incredulously told us it was a continuation of Arms for Hostages. Well not quite.....So far the body count is 200 Mexican citizens and one US Border Patrol Agent.
The next casualties should be Holder and anyone else who had a hand in this deadly attempt to steer public opinion in favor of more restrictive gun laws.




December 7, 2011 1:44 PM

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations

By Sharyl Attkisson
.



(Credit: CBS)
Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.
PICTURES: ATF "Gunwalking" scandal timeline
In Fast and Furious, ATF secretly encouraged gun dealers to sell to suspected traffickers for Mexican drug cartels to go after the "big fish." But ATF whistleblowers told CBS News and Congress it was a dangerous practice called "gunwalking," and it put thousands of weapons on the street. Many were used in violent crimes in Mexico. Two were found at the murder scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent.

ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.

On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."

More Fast and Furious coverage:
Memos contradict Holder on Fast and Furious
Agent: I was ordered to let guns "walk" into Mexico
Gunwalking scandal uncovered at ATF
On Jan. 4, 2011, as ATF prepared a press conference to announce arrests in Fast and Furious, Newell saw it as "(A)nother time to address Multiple Sale on Long Guns issue." And a day after the press conference, Chait emailed Newell: "Bill--well done yesterday... (I)n light of our request for Demand letter 3, this case could be a strong supporting factor if we can determine how many multiple sales of long guns occurred during the course of this case."

This revelation angers gun rights advocates. Larry Keane, a spokesman for National Shooting Sports Foundation, a gun industry trade group, calls the discussion of Fast and Furious to argue for Demand Letter 3 "disappointing and ironic." Keane says it's "deeply troubling" if sales made by gun dealers "voluntarily cooperating with ATF's flawed 'Operation Fast & Furious' were going to be used by some individuals within ATF to justify imposing a multiple sales reporting requirement for rifles."


The Gun Dealers' Quandary

Several gun dealers who cooperated with ATF told CBS News and Congressional investigators they only went through with suspicious sales because ATF asked them to.

Sometimes it was against the gun dealer's own best judgment.
Read the email

In April, 2010 a licensed gun dealer cooperating with ATF was increasingly concerned about selling so many guns. "We just want to make sure we are cooperating with ATF and that we are not viewed as selling to the bad guys," writes the gun dealer to ATF Phoenix officials, "(W)e were hoping to put together something like a letter of understanding to alleviate concerns of some type of recourse against us down the road for selling these items."

Read the email
ATF's group supervisor on Fast and Furious David Voth assures the gun dealer there's nothing to worry about. "We (ATF) are continually monitoring these suspects using a variety of investigative techniques which I cannot go into detail."

Two months later, the same gun dealer grew more agitated.

"I wanted to make sure that none of the firearms that were sold per our conversation with you and various ATF agents could or would ever end up south of the border or in the hands of the bad guys. I guess I am looking for a bit of reassurance that the guns are not getting south or in the wrong hands...I want to help ATF with its investigation but not at the risk of agents (sic) safety because I have some very close friends that are US Border Patrol agents in southern AZ as well as my concern for all the agents (sic) safety that protect our country."

"It's like ATF created or added to the problem so they could be the solution to it and pat themselves on the back," says one law enforcement source familiar with the facts. "It's a circular way of thinking."

The Justice Department and ATF declined to comment. ATF officials mentioned in this report did not respond to requests from CBS News to speak with them.

The "Demand Letter 3" Debate

The two sides in the gun debate have long clashed over whether gun dealers should have to report multiple rifle sales. On one side, ATF officials argue that a large number of semi-automatic, high-caliber rifles from the U.S. are being used by violent cartels in Mexico. They believe more reporting requirements would help ATF crack down. On the other side, gun rights advocates say that's unconstitutional, and would not make a difference in Mexican cartel crimes.

Two earlier Demand Letters were initiated in 2000 and affected a relatively small number of gun shops. Demand Letter 3 was to be much more sweeping, affecting 8,500 firearms dealers in four southwest border states: Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas. ATF chose those states because they "have a significant number of crime guns traced back to them from Mexico." The reporting requirements were to apply if a gun dealer sells two or more long guns to a single person within five business days, and only if the guns are semi-automatic, greater than .22 caliber and can be fitted with a detachable magazine.

On April 25, 2011, ATF announced plans to implement Demand Letter 3. The National Shooting Sports Foundation is suing the ATF to stop the new rules. It calls the regulation an illegal attempt to enforce a law Congress never passed. ATF counters that it has reasonably targeted guns used most often to "commit violent crimes in Mexico, especially by drug gangs."

Reaction

Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, is investigating Fast and Furious, as well as the alleged use of the case to advance gun regulations. "There's plenty of evidence showing that this administration planned to use the tragedies of Fast and Furious as rationale to further their goals of a long gun reporting requirement. But, we've learned from our investigation that reporting multiple long gun sales would do nothing to stop the flow of firearms to known straw purchasers because many Federal Firearms Dealers are already voluntarily reporting suspicious transactions. It's pretty clear that the problem isn't lack of burdensome reporting requirements."

On July 12, 2011, Sen. Grassley and Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., wrote Attorney General Eric Holder, whose Justice Department oversees ATF. They asked Holder whether officials in his agency discussed how "Fast and Furious could be used to justify additional regulatory authorities." So far, they have not received a response. CBS News asked the Justice Department for comment and context on ATF emails about Fast and Furious and Demand Letter 3, but officials declined to speak with us.

"In light of the evidence, the Justice Department's refusal to answer questions about the role Operation Fast and Furious was supposed to play in advancing new firearms regulations is simply unacceptable," Rep. Issa told CBS News.

[trish]

Stinks as much as Project Gun Runner and Wide Receiver.

[onmyknees]

Stinks as much as Project Gun Runner and Wide Receiver.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=2eK4KEsie2w

[trish]

Like I said, it stinks as much as Project Gunrunner and Wide Receiver.

[Stavros]

I think that a more balanced approach to this subject would suggest that Fast and Furious is a stalking operation in the same way that the police and the agencies often tag and follow drug shipments to trace the dealers and the owners. It is inevitable that some of the material will go the wrong way -however, this report from Thursday's Guardian suggests that the cartels are using US citizens in Texas to buy their weapons of choice, even though Pruett in the film disputes this -and in spite of the evidence that it does happen.

A) Congress is so terrified of the NRA it is, in effect, colluding with the cartels in their campaign to replace the state in Mexico;
B) Evidence from Washington DC shows that the dramatic collapse in gun crime in the last 15 years compared to the 1990s is driven in part by better policing and custodial sentences, but, crucially, through a collapse in demand for the crack cocaine that fuelled dysfunctional behaviour, gun and turf wars -young people grew up and shunned the stuff -but the people who shove cocaine up their nose are the people for whom the trade exists, that is the root of the problem.

The article is linked below.
How Mexico's drug cartels profit from flow of guns across the border

Cartels using US residents to buy guns legally and smuggle them across the border as Mexico pleads with Congress to act

• 
  
  • Chris McGreal in Houston
  • guardian.co.uk, Thursday 8 December 2011 14.40 GMT

'The majority of the weapons used by the cartels are coming from the US' Link to this video



If anyone at Academy sports shop in Houston was suspicious as John Hernandez pushed $2,600 in cash across the counter, they kept it to themselves.
The 25 year-old unemployed machinist in dark glasses walked out of the gun shop clutching three powerful assault rifles modelled on the US army's M-16.
A few weeks later, Hernandez bought five similar weapons at another Houston gun shop, Carter's Country. There were few questions on that occasion, either, or as he visited other weapons stores across the city in the following months until he had bought a total of 14 assault rifles and nine other weapons for nearly $25,000.
With each purchase, all the law required was that Hernandez prove he lived in Texas and wait a few minutes while the store checked he had no criminal record.
Months later, one of those assault rifles was seized in neighbouring Mexico at the scene of the "Acapulco police massacre", after one of the country's most powerful drug cartels killed five officers and two secretaries in an attack at the beach resort once regarded as a millionaires' playground. Another was recovered after the kidnap and murder of a cattle buyer. Others were found in the hands of top-level enforcers for narcotics traffickers, or abandoned after attacks on Mexican police and the military. The guns have been tied to eight killings in Mexico.
In time, US federal agents discovered that Hernandez was at the heart of a ring of two dozen people who bought more than 300 weapons from Texas gun shops for one of the more notorious Mexican drug cartels, Los Zetas. Some of those guns have since been linked to the killings of at least 18 Mexican police officers and civilians, including members of the judiciary and a businessman who was abducted and murdered.
The weapons bought by Hernandez and his ring were just a fraction of the tens of thousands smuggled across the US's southern border to cartels fighting a bloody war with the Mexican government that has claimed about 45,000 lives in five years.
It's a war sustained by a merry-go-round. The cartels use the money paid by Americans for drugs to buy weapons at US guns stores, which are then shipped across the frontier, often using the same vehicles and routes used to smuggle more narcotics north. The weapons are used by the cartels to protect narcotics production in their battle with the Mexican police and army, and smuggle drugs north.
Key to the cycle is the ease with which traffickers are able to obtain guns in the US, made possible in large part by the robust opposition of the powerful gun lobby – backed by much of the US Congress – to tighter laws against arms trafficking.
"The United States is the easiest and the cheapest place for drug traffickers to get their firearms, and as long as we are the easiest and cheapest place for the cartels to get their firearms there'll continue to be gun trafficking," said J Dewey Webb, the special agent in charge of pursuing weapons traffickers in Texas at the US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF).
Kristen Rand, director of the Violence Policy Centre which campaigns for greater gun control, said drug traffickers face little more than a few logistical difficulties in buying weapons in America.
"If you wanted to design a set of laws to encourage gun trafficking, that is what the US has done," she said. "The traffickers are able to access a high volume of assault weapons, sniper rifles, armour-piercing handguns. All the weapons they need to wage war are readily available on the civilian market. There's basically nothing to stop them other than the annoyance of having to round up enough people to buy them."
'All the weapons are bought in the US'
It's even easier to buy ammunition. While many US states demand a driving licence to buy common types of cold medicine that can also be used to manufacture the drug meth amphetamine, not a single state requires identification to purchase ammunition, even in large quantities.
According to the US Government Accountability Office, 87% of firearms seized by Mexico over the previous five years were traced to the US. Texas was the single largest source. The US attorney general, Eric Holder, told Congress last month that of 94,000 weapons captured from drug traffickers by the Mexican authorities, over 64,000 originated in the US.
Tens of thousands of guns have been smuggled across the US's southern border. Photograph: Ronaldo Schemidt/AFP/Getty Images One of the most senior members of the Zetas, Jesus Enrique Rejon Aguilar, said after his capture in July that the cartel is armed by weapons from American gun shops.
"All the weapons are bought in the United States," he said .
Only legal residents of Texas can buy guns over the counter, so the cartels use people such as Hernandez, who has since been jailed for eight years along with other members of his ring, as "straw purchasers".
"We see them being paid $50 to $500 a time. In these times, that's a lot of money for folks," said Webb. "What we've seen with the cartels is very elaborate schemes. They have people that handle the money. They have people that handle the transportation of the weapons. They use the same infrastructure they use to bring the drugs in. Sometimes even the same vehicles that move the narcotics north are the vehicles that move the firearms and the ammunition and money south."
The straw buyers are mostly in search of guns such as AK-47s and Armalite assault rifles, which were popular with the IRA, as well as powerful pistols such as the Belgian-made FN. All are available over the counter in thousands of gun shops.
Webb rests his hand on a long, heavy sniper rifle that fires a round nearly six inches long, seized on its way to Mexico.
"The cartels want that because it fires a round that can disable a vehicle by penetrating the engine. You can hit a target from almost a mile away with that. That gun sells for about $10,000 most places. Over the last five years we've seen an increase in demand by the traffickers for that gun," he said.
"We had a case not too long ago where a juvenile, through his iPhone, was able to buy one of those weapons from a licensed dealer and then sent an adult in to straw-purchase the gun."
Jim Pruett's gun store in northern Houston sells the full array of weapons. "We've been through hurricanes here, many of them, where lawlessness prevails for a short period of time. If something like that hits, you're gonna have to defend yourself," said Pruett, standing next to a gun target that characterises Osama bin Laden as a zombie. "I think the zombies are real in that they are the meth addicts, the crazed cartel druggies."
Pruett said he sees suspicious buyers on a regular basis. He still sells them guns but then reports them.
"Is there racial profiling? Yes. If they're Hispanic and they're female and they're buying 10 AK-47s, yes, that's a red light and we're gonna call ATF and let them know about it," he said.
Has he had such a customer?
"Yes. We unofficially found out she was taking the guns south and turning AK's in to fully automatic," he said. "Gun store owners are patriotic. We want to get the bad guys."
Pruett said he also turned in a man who bought 10 AR-15s, the civilian version of the army's M-16.
Last month, Holder told Congress that the US is "losing the battle" to stem the flow of weapons, and appealed for stronger legislation. Last year, Mexico's president, Felipe Calderon, pleaded with the US Congress to act.
"There is one issue where Mexico needs your cooperation, and that is stopping the flow of assault weapons and other deadly arms across the border," he said.
In July, two Democratic party members of Congress sponsored legislation to make weapons trafficking a federal crime. It has widespread support among police officers including the Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association which represents more than 26,000 federal agents.
'Virtually moribund' Congress
But the bill is facing stiff resistance from a gun lobby that says new laws are the thin end of a wedge that will result in the government confiscating all weapons. Wayne LaPierre, chief executive of the National Rifle Association, one of the most powerful lobby groups in the US, has said that tightening gun laws will penalise hunters and those Americans who buy firearms for self-defence.
Many members of Congress, often with one eye on the NRA, are also resistant.
Politicians who speak alarmingly of the threat to the US from the bloodshed on its southern border, and use it to call for tighter immigration controls, are often the ones who most strongly oppose even the most minimal new measures to stem the flow of weapons.
A report by the US senate's narcotics control caucus in June said: "Congress has been virtually moribund while powerful Mexican drug trafficking organisations continue to gain unfettered access to military-style firearms coming from the United States".
"The reason it doesn't happen is because the National Rifle Association owns Congress," said Rand. "Congress is right now working to pass legislation to loosen the restrictions on the carrying of concealed weapons. There's no will, no leadership from the White House."
The Obama administration has spurned appeals to reinstate a ban on the importation of AK-47s and other kinds of foreign-made assault rifles that was in place during the Clinton administration but dropped by President Bush.
The ATF, which falls under Holder's jurisdiction, earlier this year began requiring gun shops in the four US states bordering Mexico to report to authorities if the same person buys two or more assault rifles and some other guns over a five-day period. Congress has tried to block the measure, to Holder's frustration.
"Unfortunately, earlier this year, the House of Representatives actually voted to keep law enforcement in the dark when individuals purchase multiple semi-automatic rifles and shotguns in south-west border gun shops," Holder told Congress.
The gun lobby's strategy has been to go on the attack by questioning whether the cartels are being armed by guns bought in the US at all. It's a view shared by Pruett.
"The idea that Jim Pruett's guns and ammo are supplying the drug cartels with weapons is totally unsound thinking," said Pruett. "The drug cartels probably have more money than Mexico. They get AR-15s, rocket launchers, explosives, you name it, by the cargo container full, probably through legal means. Probably El Salvador is more of a sieve for the influx of guns than the United States is … The argument ends with: the United States does not supply the cartels with weapons."
Webb scoffs at the idea. Although restrained by his position from openly criticising the politics of the issue, he is clearly frustrated at the unwillingness of Congress to act.
"There's some common sense things about the way things should be done," he said.
But ultimately, Webb says it's the drug buyers who are responsible.
"Every person that pays for that marijuana, that meth, that cocaine is paying for the tools of the trade which are guns. Those people that are buying the drugs are just as responsible as the people buying those guns, just as responsible as the people pulling the triggers in Mexico. The drug use in this country is fuelling that machine. It's a never-ending cycle," he said.
Mexico's president sees it differently.
"Why does this arms business continue?" Calderon said in June. "I say it openly: it's because of the profit which the US arms industry makes."




http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...o-drug-cartels

[onmyknees]

[QUOTE=Stavros;1059924]I think that a more balanced approach to this subject would suggest that Fast and Furious is a stalking operation in the same way that the police and the agencies often tag and follow drug shipments to trace the dealers and the owners. It is inevitable that some of the material will go the wrong way -however, this report from Thursday's Guardian suggests that the cartels are using US citizens in Texas to buy their weapons of choice, even though Pruett in the film disputes this -and in spite of the evidence that it does happen.

A) Congress is so terrified of the NRA it is, in effect, colluding with the cartels in their campaign to replace the state in Mexico;
B) Evidence from Washington DC shows that the dramatic collapse in gun crime in the last 15 years compared to the 1990s is driven in part by better policing and custodial sentences, but, crucially, through a collapse in demand for the crack cocaine that fuelled dysfunctional behaviour, gun and turf wars -young people grew up and shunned the stuff -but the people who shove cocaine up their nose are the people for whom the trade exists, that is the root of the problem.




With all due respect...you're a way off base Stavros. If that was the intent, a 23 year old police academy grad could tell you with the technology that exists today, a GPS chip could have been planted in each one of these firearms, and it's location tracked by satellite. Obviously there were other motives, as we know the gun dealers repeatedly called ATF prior to selling to these guns to suspicious Mexicans, and were told to sell them all the guns they wanted. So why then did ATF and the Justice Department allow over 2000 highly dangerous weapons to walk across the border? Read the CBS article again by Ms. Atkinson. The intent was to allow them to walk and to be used , exactly as they were....violently ........to influence national public opinion against firearms, thinking that the body count and carnage would move public opinon against gun rights. I guarantee heads will roll, as the blood over 200 innocent Mexican citizens and one Border Agent is on the hands of every Justice Department official who knew about this, and knew there was no way to track these weapons once they left the gun store. Somebody's goin down, and I can only hope it's Holder. His limited powers of recollection, and his refusal to be sworn in before testifying tell you all you need to know. He has a long history of curious associations. Google The Mark Rich Pardon.

While everyone acknowledges the violence south of the border, and the role guns from the US have in that violence, this poorly thought out, politically motivated plan was not the way to deal with that. Issa and Grassley are not going away, so stay tuned.

[russtafa]

We have very tough and restrictive gun laws in Australia and we have never had so many drive bys or gun crimes so i don't think these laws work it just gives more power to the criminals

[trish]

Bullshit

[russtafa]

Bullshit

not bullshit there are home invasions
and more dive bys than ever and i know your personal prejudice's stop you from accepting the truth but that's your hang up.The victims of these crimes sure wish they could protect themselves

[Stavros]

No 1 is that the core issue is the trade in banned narcotics. My assumption is that the economic downturn has actually reduced demand in the USA and that this drop in revenue is as much a part of the inter-cartel conflict in Mexico as the general business argument -I have read various reports of the drug trade being worth X billion $ in one paper with a different figure in another. It is still worth a lot of money, but the business exists because it has customers; greater public awareness of the costs of that snort and that fix (which usually comes via Afghanistan and Pakistan) could, over time, persuade the next generation to try something else to get their kicks; I don't think the current generation of users cares one way or the other how many Mexicans get killed.

The 2nd issue is the hardy perennial of gun control -the USA is addicted to killing, the right to bear arms has been debated again and again and again, but if you are going to reserve the right to buy them, at least make obtaining a weapon as hard as possible, and how can any sane individual want to own an automatic weapon that looks like something out of a war film? What is that used for? Even hunters must surely believe that you have one shot to get the deer, isn't that how they rank each other's ability?

The 3rd Issue is that if the Obama administration devised this policy and it has failed, they must admit it, and find something else. The Obama administration has less of an impact on the cartel wars than drug users, I feel you are trying too hard to smear the Obama administration with any and every calumny you can think of -even the 'neo-cons' didn't bomb the cartels residences into rubble yet they were indifferent to the rubble left behind in Iraq -on day 1 they blasted a private house into dust because someone told them Saddam was eating dinner there -he wasn't, 25 people were killed, and none of them got any compensation. And Mexico's crime has direct impact on the USA in a way Iraq never has.

There is a 4th Issue, and that is whether or not the Calderon administration in Mexico went about this issue the wrong way, and has actually generated more violence than would have happened had the focus been on the manifestly corrupt military and police services of that country. The rule of law? Whose law?
I used to know a well-educated Mexican here in the UK who despaired of his country's political administrations -an oil rich country with plenty of oil that hasn't been discovered in the Gulf, none of which 'trickles' anywhere near the pueblo. In the end, he said, you create a niche for yourself and your family in some town or some city, try to stay in work, eat, pray and play and just hope the reality that is sometimes only metres away doesn't come through the front or the back door.

Ultimately, the drugs trade is just an illegal part of the capitalist system, a system that has no emotional sentiment or morals; it has one motive -to make money: undermine that and you undermine crime syndicates at the level of the cartels, given that there will always be some criminal underworld -but there is no reason why anyone should live in a country where organised crime is, in effect, a parallel government. After all, some people believe elected governments are not much different.