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  1. #1
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    Default Presidents, Prime Ministers, Dictators

    Arnie in a recent thread suggested that much of the ridicule of Herman Cain is a form of veiled racism. I think he has a point, even if Mr Cain does lend himself to ridicule for being so ill-informed on major news stories. George W Bush was ridiculed for the way he mangled words, but he was a Yale and a Harvard graduate so he must have had some intellectual skills

    But, what is it that people expect of their leaders, be they Presidents, Prime Ministers, Queens and Kings or Dictators? Is there some expectation that they should be wise and knowledgeable, capable of providing an informed response to any question?

    I think, North Korea aside, we have gone beyond the days when Stalin could be praised for his major contributions to the study of linguistics (which if true is probably not actually about lingustics but words in action), but by the same token, why do some leaders come across as being out of the loop on so many day to day things we all know about -is it because holding office removes one from reality?

    Today in The Guardian, an excellent article on the decline of the British economy reveals that Tony Blair got his first mobile phone when he left office in 2007 -presumably he was advised not to have one because his media/press advisers were afraid it would be hacked (?)- and this is what the apostle of the knowledge economy is claimed to have said in his first text to press secretary Alastair Campbell:

    "This is amazing, you can send words on a phone."


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...-manufacturing



  2. #2
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    Default Re: Presidents, Prime Ministers, Dictators

    the media is the prince of lies


    live with honour

  3. #3
    Hung Angel Platinum Poster trish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Presidents, Prime Ministers, Dictators

    We shouldn’t expect our leaders to be particle physicists, nobel prize winning economists or previous captains of industry or policy wonks. I have colleagues who are literally geniuses in their fields but don’t know how to carry on diner conversation if it’s not about the latest in their fields of ob[s]ession. I might add that most of the geniuses I know have incredibly diverse interests and talents. I don’t expect our political leaders to be geniuses, but I do expect them to have diverse interests and talents. I expect them to have a ready knowledge of history, current affairs and law. I expect their views to be well considered, influenced, informed and tempered by the [] views of others. I expect our leaders to have a healthy respect for the knowledge and experience of recognized experts in the sciences related to energy, climate, agriculture, minerals, resources, economics, military strategy etc. etc. I expect their confidence on any issue to be commensurate with their demonstrated knowledge and experience related to the issue. I would like a leader who doesn’t have to study to stay current, but is current because their love of reading and conversation keeps them current (not that they don’t study, but study is not a boring chore they have to endure for the purposes campaigning[)]. I expect our leaders to have a friends whom they love, family and influences who aren't necessarily scientists, captains of industry or politicians...people who work behind counters, in assembly lines, soldiers, or people without work and looking. I could go on, but I’ll stop here for now.


    Last edited by trish; 11-17-2011 at 06:48 PM. Reason: [edits in square brackets]
    "...I no longer believe that people's secrets are defined and communicable, or their feelings full-blown and easy to recognize."_Alice Munro, Chaddeleys and Flemings.

    "...the order in creation which you see is that which you have put there, like a string in a maze, so that you shall not lose your way". _Judge Holden, Cormac McCarthy's, BLOOD MERIDIAN.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Platinum Poster Prospero's Avatar
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    Default Re: Presidents, Prime Ministers, Dictators

    I AGREE WITH TRISH ON THIS.....
    Quote Originally Posted by trish View Post
    We shouldn’t expect our leaders to be particle physicists, nobel prize winning economists or previous captains of industry or policy wonks.........I don’t expect our political leaders to be geniuses, but I do expect them to have diverse interests and talents. I expect them to have a ready knowledge of history, current affairs and law. (And economics) I expect their views to be well considered, influenced, informed and tempered by the views views of others. I expect our leaders to have a healthy respect for the knowledge and experience of recognized experts in the sciences related to energy, climate, agriculture, minerals, resources, economics, military strategy etc. etc. I expect their confidence on any issue to be commensurate with their demonstrated knowledge and experience related to the issue. I would like a leader who doesn’t have to study to stay current, but is current because their love of reading and conversation keeps them current (not that they don’t study, but study is not a boring chore they have to endure for the purposes campaigning. I expect our leaders to have a friends whom they love, family and influences who aren't necessarily scientists, captains of industry or politicians...people who work behind counters, in assembly lines, soldiers, or people without work and looking. I could go on, but I’ll stop here for now.
    We were often told that the bedside reading of various presidnts qnd world leaders were such words as the various books on geopolitics by Robert Kaplan or on Islam by pseudo-experts like Bernard lewis. I shudder to think what people such as Sarah Palin (no longer a candidate), the pizza guy or the rest of the Republican contenders read. Possibly the Bible and in the case of Mitt Romney the book of Mormon. As the putative leader of the free world we need a leader who is very bright and informed but with a mind that can move swiftly and decisively and who has the capacity to evaluate and look at all the various issues involved in a situation before taking a decision - not one whose decisions re based on blind ideology (of right or left.)
    Interestingly Tony Blair recently wrote about the books which had influenced him most profoundly.A very catholic list - ranging from the Bible to Marx but with some key works of literature , science and economics thrown in.



  5. #5
    Hung Angel Platinum Poster trish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Presidents, Prime Ministers, Dictators

    I'll accept the addition of "economics" as a friendly amendment.

    I didn't know that about Tony Blair, but I'm not surprised. In the U.S. we regard, "What newspapers do you read?" as a gotcha-question.


    "...I no longer believe that people's secrets are defined and communicable, or their feelings full-blown and easy to recognize."_Alice Munro, Chaddeleys and Flemings.

    "...the order in creation which you see is that which you have put there, like a string in a maze, so that you shall not lose your way". _Judge Holden, Cormac McCarthy's, BLOOD MERIDIAN.

  6. #6
    Silver Poster hippifried's Avatar
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    Default Re: Presidents, Prime Ministers, Dictators

    Quote Originally Posted by trish View Post
    In the U.S. we regard, "What newspapers do you read?" as a gotcha-question.
    That was never the case before Sara Palin blew onto the scene & made ignorance chic. Not bothering to read newspapers could have easily been shrugged off, but she tried to lie about it & then started whining about how unfair it is to try & find out if she knows anything at all. Now Michelle Bachman won't talk to anybody who might interrupt her rant long enough to ask a legit question. The Palin whine is dishonest. The "ignorant is the new smart" argument is dishonest. The world knows who James Bond is because somebody asked JFK what he was reading. (If you've ever read Ian Flemming, the books are just silly scenarios, with lots of gratuitous violence to package all the graphic sex. Just soft porn.) It doesn't matter what it is. It's a stock question for anyone in power or seeking it. Reading was always assumed until now.


    Oh by the way, Prospero,
    Blair might get away with it, but this is America. In the current climate, any politition who admits to even considering reading Marx could get tarred & feathered, & run out of the country on a rail.


    "You can pick your friends & you can pick your nose, but you can't wipe your friends off on your saddle."
    ~ Kinky Friedman ~

  7. #7
    Senior Member Platinum Poster Prospero's Avatar
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    Default Re: Presidents, Prime Ministers, Dictators

    Reading Marx is hard going.(Palin and Bachmann would probably think you meant that jewish leftie Groucho if asked) Reading a good book about Marx and his basic ideas would seem to be essentially political reading whatever your position. Back in the day we also read a guy called Herbert Marcuse. i bet he is not even in print now.



  8. #8
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    Default Re: Presidents, Prime Ministers, Dictators

    Trish has covered the angles well, notably the point that if a candidate isn't an expert on some issue, there should always be an adviser who can fill the gap -I am surpised that Cain has a team which doesn't brief him on a range of topics, if they dont know much about Libya that is a real weakness.

    Politicians normally have vastly more self-confidence than most people, so the intellectual depth they can bring to policy debates should also give them a reputation for trust that people like too, trust coming from from someone who knows what he is talking about and why -critics of Obama argue that he makes a great speech but doesn't make good policy, that he is, in effect a lighweight. I don't think Clinton was much of an intellect, but like Reagan he had communication skills.

    What has puzzled and annoyed me about Blair on this is not what he read when he was at Oxford, but why he lived through one crisis after another in the Middle East without ever choosing to go there to meet the Arabs, eat their food, ask them what it is that they want from life. And yet at some point he became politically ambitious enough to propel himself towards the upper reaches of politics -then when he got there, he relied for advice on the Middle East on Zionists, and rejected the advice offered by the academics with years of experience in the region. To me, that is a failure of judgement, not balancing arguments before making a decision. Gordon Brown was a frequent visitor to Israel with his clergyman father, like Harold Wilson in the 1960s his bias has never been hidden.

    A final point also from the Middle East. Over many decades the Israeli's have reneged on agreements, have repudiated international law and in the process filleted out any centrist Palestinian policians who were both popular and could at one time deliver -Hanan Ashrawi and Haydar Abdul Shafi to take two examples. When the centre ground fails, and leaves the field, only extremists remain, making compromise that more difficult.

    When the best minds do not go into politics, I suggest, our choice of candidates is limited to people whom, ten years ago, would never have got within a mile of holding office -it is easy to ridicule extremists like Michele Bachmann, we have plenty of nutters in the British parliament, but they are now the candidates people are expected to choose from. Hippifried's ignorance is the new smart is chilling indeed.

    Not just in Israel, but in Africa, I am told also in India -why do the brightest minds scorn a career in politics?



  9. #9
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    Default Re: Presidents, Prime Ministers, Dictators

    I'd be happy with just some common sense, and working for the betterment of the country they are running. Take Australia Julie gilliard, she thinks it's a great idea to sell uranium to India, nothing against India but they haven't signed the nuclear proliferation treaty, and are awfully close to countries that aren't that trustworthy themselves, but oh noes, she need new shoes so the world has to possibly get screwed through her lack of common sense



  10. #10
    Platinum Poster Ben's Avatar
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    Default Re: Presidents, Prime Ministers, Dictators

    Quote Originally Posted by Stavros View Post
    Arnie in a recent thread suggested that much of the ridicule of Herman Cain is a form of veiled racism. I think he has a point, even if Mr Cain does lend himself to ridicule for being so ill-informed on major news stories. George W Bush was ridiculed for the way he mangled words, but he was a Yale and a Harvard graduate so he must have had some intellectual skills

    But, what is it that people expect of their leaders, be they Presidents, Prime Ministers, Queens and Kings or Dictators? Is there some expectation that they should be wise and knowledgeable, capable of providing an informed response to any question?

    I think, North Korea aside, we have gone beyond the days when Stalin could be praised for his major contributions to the study of linguistics (which if true is probably not actually about lingustics but words in action), but by the same token, why do some leaders come across as being out of the loop on so many day to day things we all know about -is it because holding office removes one from reality?

    Today in The Guardian, an excellent article on the decline of the British economy reveals that Tony Blair got his first mobile phone when he left office in 2007 -presumably he was advised not to have one because his media/press advisers were afraid it would be hacked (?)- and this is what the apostle of the knowledge economy is claimed to have said in his first text to press secretary Alastair Campbell:

    "This is amazing, you can send words on a phone."


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...-manufacturing
    Bush got into Harvard because big Daddy wrote a big check. Anyway, the people who rule the world go to Harvard. Think: Obama.
    At Harvard they teach you how to walk, how to talk. Again, people who rule the world go there. That's the function of Harvard. (But the whole education system is designed to make people stupid and obedient. That's the core function. Obedience is key.)
    I can't say anything about Yale. (And, of course, a lot of the loathing toward Obama comes from the fact that he's black. I'm not a fan of Obama's. But FOCUS on his policies. Same with Cain. Cain, like Obama, has no core beliefs and doesn't care about issues.
    The only one that is very principled is Ron Paul. And maybe Jon Huntsman. Paul is extremely principled. And is good with respect to foreign policy and some domestic issues. I think his fervor with pure free markets is insane. But he believes it can work. And that prices on everything would come way down. Maybe he's right. Maybe he's wrong.)
    And the BEST POLITICAL LEADERS are the ones who are, well, corrupt and lazy.


    Last edited by Ben; 11-21-2011 at 03:46 AM.

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