what went wrong in the UK and how do they fix it

[russtafa]

they have done a lot more than that the self serving bastards .these bastards look after each other either ethnic,union,big business

[Stavros]

The last few years have seen the people 'at the top' exposed in ways that were previously limited to 'errant individuals' -the expenses scandal has been followed by the phone hacking scandal against a background of economic decline which was partly caused by the Treasury looking the other way while the foundations were eaten away by credit. It makes people wonder if politicians and the police are so focused on their own little world the rest of us are just there to vote them into office, and obey their rules. But that doesn't invalidate the law, so even if much of the looting was both organised and a spontaneous expression of anomie with 'the state', it was wrong, when it involves destruction for the sake of it, and now murder, there is a point at which if it isn't stopped, it will never stop.

Its not about 'where do we start' -because its always been here: lawlessness -Cain killed Abel, unable to express his frustration and, being a farmer of crops, lacking an animal to sacrifice to vent his rage. So he killed his brother, who had what he lacked; but in doing so, lost more. The sad truth is that for the most part, young men between the ages of 16-35 are most likely to be convicted of a crime. I know that when I was 16 I wanted to leave home -I had already left school and was working; I know that when I did leave home, at 18, it was an opportunity to experiment -to smoke dope, get blind drunk on a Saturday night, eat greasy kebabs on the way home from the pub -and so on. I did break the law also, not out of necessity, but to see if it could be done; and because of my upbringing I still feel guilty about it even though it was the petty side of petty. Its like driving through a red light in a remote area at 2am when you can see the roads are clear -it is illegal, and yet...

Young men used to have channels into which they could pour their dynamism and energy -the merchant navy, the military, jobs above all: there were always a hard core of erratic people for whom crime was a vocation, even a family businesss and, famously, they developed their own 'rules'.

Jobs: work: self-respect: to 're-build' society as a whole we need to put it to work; if there are people who cannot read and write, go back to zero and start again with the alphabet. The cost of it is enormous, the reward is probably smaller than the outlay in monetary terms, but worth it if people end up in work, able to buy their own food and pay the rent. The cost of not doing it is greate: the cost of prison, and the social cost of no-go areas, unchecked violence, and the sense of rage, injustice, and fear stalking the streets.

If people then perceive the top of society to be rotten, its an even more difficult task. I don't know if our current crop are up to it. And I don't see where the jobs are coming from, not in the UK anyway.

[russtafa]

i cant see why society does not put conditions to the dole .like working with the disabled or elderly.this would give these kids more of an awareness of the rest of society and that there are people worse off than themselves

[Stavros]

We have something called 'community service'; and some think it is a better option than prison for lesser crimes, ie not crimes of violence. One argument has been that the looters and rioters should be forced to do community service in the places where they committed the crime. I think most of the 'service' work is fixing fences and walls and repairing roads, stuff like that. Not sure how it would work if they were sent into care homes, but helping an old man on and off a commode would be a sobering experience for them, if they can manage it.

[russtafa]

these kids must be bought more into the greater community so they are apart of it.with a lot more respect for their elders and parents then perhaps they will then respect themselves

[hippifried]

Okay, I think I see what's happening now. Until today, I had no idea what started all this. Apparently, the catalyst was a police shooting? Nobody bothered to mention it because ... What? It's not relevant? The barrage of socio-psycho-babble has it's place in explaining the buildup of pressure, but the perception of violent police misconduct is the trigger for riots most of the time.

[robertlouis]

these kids must be bought more into the greater community so they are apart of it.with a lot more respect for their elders and parents then perhaps they will then respect themselves

Spot on, Russ. There was an article in yesterday's Guardian that made the point that so far the people doing the explaining about the riots were the same people writing the articles, and that at some stage it would make an awful lot of sense to ask those directly involved to explain what it was that made them part of the mob. Once the red mist of public anger has dissipated a little perhaps we'll find out.

[russtafa]

Okay, I think I see what's happening now. Until today, I had no idea what started all this. Apparently, the catalyst was a police shooting? Nobody bothered to mention it because ... What? It's not relevant? The barrage of socio-psycho-babble has it's place in explaining the buildup of pressure, but the perception of violent police misconduct is the trigger for riots most of the time.

hippi have another joint man like wow mannn

[robertlouis]

Okay, I think I see what's happening now. Until today, I had no idea what started all this. Apparently, the catalyst was a police shooting? Nobody bothered to mention it because ... What? It's not relevant? The barrage of socio-psycho-babble has it's place in explaining the buildup of pressure, but the perception of violent police misconduct is the trigger for riots most of the time.

That's correct, hippi. A black man was shot by police in Tottenham last Thursday. The police closed ranks, as they were immediately subject to an IPCC investigation, which of course fuelled community suspicions about a cover-up. The family and friends of the shot man organised a peaceful march on the Saturday through Tottenham. That was what got out of control and sparked the initial rioting in Tottenham, which then spread on subsequent nights to other suburbs such as Enfield, Croydon and Ealing. By that time, any notion of protest had long gone, and they were simply copy-cat excuses for firebombing, looting and wrecking communities across the capital and in due course across the country.

It's also worth pointing out that all the London rioting happened well away from the west end and the city, the traditional centres of London, whereas in Birmingham, Manchester, Salford etc, it was the main centres that got hit.

It's worth hypothesising that if the original rioters in Tottenham had stuck to their initial attacks on the police and not moved on to wrecking and looting shops, perhaps the other riots would not have taken place at all.

[hippifried]

There's a lot of neighborhoods around the world where the police are viewed as 'just another gang'. If memory serves, wasn't it some kind of police altercation that set off the riots in France a few years back? With all the yammering at the time about "multiculturism" & Islam being at fault for burning down the Muslim ghettos, my only question was: "Why are there Muslim ghettos?" I never got an answer. We see this from time to time in the States. The whole world saw the Rodney King related insanity, but in that case we also got to see the initial trigger incident. To the people who live there, the only thing new was that the incident got caught on tape. There were 2 more major outbreaks after that. The dates & details escape me, but Miami burned for a few days over an incident. There may have been some aftershocks too, over the course of several weeks, but I'm a bit hazy & not in a research mode or mood. Then Cincinatti erupted, over & over for a few months. That got really bad. I believe the Cincinatti PD got gutted over that.

The trigger is almost irrelevant. it's just one of a multitude of instances over time. The proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back". There's a lot of outlooks that need to change all through the social spectrum before this is going to get any better.