what went wrong in the UK and how do they fix it

[trish]

Being unable to find legitimate means to transition and put myself through undergraduate school, I resorted to criminal activity. Activities which I would claim harmed neither myself nor my clients. But many people (even in these boards) don't see it that way. Good and bad are not very helpful concepts when thinking through these problems. (I was able to make my way through grad school without engaging in "extracurricular" activity and today I do just fine on just my day job).

I don't condone assholes who vandalize and loot for a hoot. Nor do I condone assholes who are addicted to wealth and need more and more of it no matter who they hurt, what wars they fuel or even if they destroy the fucking planet. I do have sympathy for people who are driven to crime by the circumstances of their life and their need to survive in it.

BTW, Like every TG, I've taken care of myself in many a scary situations, but thanks for the offer.

[Ben]

The government and police fucked up with their socialist methods ,i know hippie and Trish will disagree with me and say the poor darlings need more welfare payments or the police are far to tough

Here's a radical solution: cut ALL government spending. Have a TOTAL free market. Meaning: privatize everything &/or no, absolutely no State intervention... and let's see how things go -- ha ha ha!
Just joking. But a lot of people would want a private police force. Ya know, why should the rich pay for patrolling those poor neighborhoods. Ya know, why should I care.
And, too, private health care. Ya know, who cares about anyone else's health. Same with the Fire Department. And: Private schools. Well, why should I pay to educate someone else's kid.
I think this is what will happen in the not-too-distant future: government will simply privatize everything. That's what the right wants. I mean, everything private. Police. Schools... etc etc....

[robertlouis]

Interesting debate on Question Time on the BBC last night, which focused on the role of the police and their relationships with both government and the public.

Consensus seemed to be that the police were feeling their way when the rioting started, and have since been criticised for their initially relatively passive stance. In light of previous events, such as the G20 protests in 2009, where an entirely uninvolved man died after the action of one policeman, they have been hesitant in taking any form of aggressive action against demonstrators or protesters.

Now, granted that this week's events were riots, pure and simple, and not political demonstrations, it might have seemed that a hard response from the outset was what was required, but it didn't happen, giving the rioters and those watching on television the realisation that they could have a go too. That led to the awful scenes elsewhere in the capital on Sunday and Monday.

By the time that the rioting had spread to Manchester and other cities on Tuesday, the police were better prepared and in much larger numbers - yes, not enough to prevent widespread looting, but more in control nevertheless.

On Wednesday, the police were back on the front foot and the rioting was smaller in scale, duration and effect.

What's interesting now is the visible disbelief of those charged and the relatively severe sentences that they are being handed; in a social group which insists on entitlements but does not understand the corollary of responsibility, it's a big moment.

Long-term effect? Too early to say, but the police have to go to the utmost lengths to arrest every single rioter if at all possible and ensure that the appropriate punishment is handed out. Little evidence so far that the courts are being lenient.

[Dino Velvet]

Being unable to find legitimate means to transition and put myself through undergraduate school, I resorted to criminal activity. Activities which I would claim harmed neither myself nor my clients. But many people (even in these boards) don't see it that way. Good and bad are not very helpful concepts when thinking through these problems. (I was able to make my way through grad school without engaging in "extracurricular" activity and today I do just fine on just my day job).

I don't condone assholes who vandalize and loot for a hoot. Nor do I condone assholes who are addicted to wealth and need more and more of it no matter who they hurt, what wars they fuel or even if they destroy the fucking planet. I do have sympathy for people who are driven to crime by the circumstances of their life and their need to survive in it.

BTW, Like every TG, I've taken care of myself in many a scary situations, but thanks for the offer.

You are not violent. Violence is bad. Violence would be punished. Escorting and stripping is not an act of violence. As long as you choose peace you would be safe. Why do you make it so hard to ensure your own safety? If putting folks in cages make you sleep better and safer at night, so be it. You are my concern. Your tough life decisions never led you to murder or mayhem.

[robertlouis]

I suppose it's ok to make the point that the bankers and others involved in the global and national financial system also fail to conform to accepted standards of social behaviour and morality. They may not actually go out in hoodies and cause riots, but their fucking over of every man, woman and child on the planet in their relentless pursuit of personal wealth without any moral sense, limit or hindrance has done infinitely greater damage than four days and nights of rioting and looting.

And the bastards are totally untouchable.

Just sayin'

[Dino Velvet]

I suppose it's ok to make the point that the bankers and others involved in the global and national financial system also fail to conform to accepted standards of social behaviour and morality. They may not actually go out in hoodies and cause riots, but their fucking over of every man, woman and child on the planet in their relentless pursuit of personal wealth without any moral sense, limit or hindrance has done infinitely greater damage than four days and nights of rioting and looting.

And the bastards are totally untouchable.

Just sayin'

I can't comment on this. My degree is in Administration Of Justice and I know I don't understand your unique legal system or how your neighborhoods operate. I like your country and don't want folks to have to cower in their flats at night. You guys are worth fighting for because most of you are decent and civilized.

[robertlouis]

Being unable to find legitimate means to transition and put myself through undergraduate school, I resorted to criminal activity. Activities which I would claim harmed neither myself nor my clients. But many people (even in these boards) don't see it that way. Good and bad are not very helpful concepts when thinking through these problems. (I was able to make my way through grad school without engaging in "extracurricular" activity and today I do just fine on just my day job).

I don't condone assholes who vandalize and loot for a hoot. Nor do I condone assholes who are addicted to wealth and need more and more of it no matter who they hurt, what wars they fuel or even if they destroy the fucking planet. I do have sympathy for people who are driven to crime by the circumstances of their life and their need to survive in it.

BTW, Like every TG, I've taken care of myself in many a scary situations, but thanks for the offer.

I've admired your intellect and your principles since I first joined HA, Trish. This post makes me admire you all the more as a person too.

[Dino Velvet]

I've admired your intellect and your principles since I first joined HA, Trish. This post makes me admire you all the more as a person too.

I've found her to be good sometimes because of our differences. I like people that think differently. Trish is a good gal for sure. I've harassed her plenty so she knows.

[Stavros]

I'm sure they have their own personal story that provides some explanation of why they are where they are. But, do you forgive them and send them back to live off the decent or separate them from society and incarcerate them?

For me Dino makes this is absolutely key point, because with the worst individuals, the ones who rammed a car against three young men and killed them; the person or persons who killed a man remonstrating with them for setting a dustbin alight; and the youths who first stole a bicycle from a Malaysian student, then broke his jaw, and then the others who robbed him while 'helping' him to his feet -with people like this for whom life and property has no value, do you use some kind of state-sponsored, ie welfare programme to help them adjust, or do you lock them up and throw the key away?

The hardest thing about it, if you dig deep into the most severe cases but which probably applies to many others, is that what is most absent in their lives, since they were babies, is love. Rehabilitation, it seems, must begin with the heart, many of these people need to love themselves before they can relate to anyone else and understand how beautiful it can be to be alive. It is not a lot to ask, but probably too much to ask, that people realise that it is love that is absent from these lives that were wrecked before they were 7 years old; and then find a way of bringing them to it. Either it is worth something to society to make an effort to reach them; or, as I say, you throw them away. Some will never change, and I guess they die young or spend most of their adult life in prison; but if you can save a few, show them a different way of living, isn't that worth something morally, as well as being a better way of spending tax-payer's money?

[robertlouis]

I'm sure they have their own personal story that provides some explanation of why they are where they are. But, do you forgive them and send them back to live off the decent or separate them from society and incarcerate them?

For me Dino makes this is absolutely key point, because with the worst individuals, the ones who rammed a car against three young men and killed them; the person or persons who killed a man remonstrating with them for setting a dustbin alight; and the youths who first stole a bicycle from a Malaysian student, then broke his jaw, and then the others who robbed him while 'helping' him to his feet -with people like this for whom life and property has no value, do you use some kind of state-sponsored, ie welfare programme to help them adjust, or do you lock them up and throw the key away?

The hardest thing about it, if you dig deep into the most severe cases but which probably applies to many others, is that what is most absent in their lives, since they were babies, is love. Rehabilitation, it seems, must begin with the heart, many of these people need to love themselves before they can relate to anyone else and understand how beautiful it can be to be alive. It is not a lot to ask, but probably too much to ask, that people realise that it is love that is absent from these lives that were wrecked before they were 7 years old; and then find a way of bringing them to it. Either it is worth something to society to make an effort to reach them; or, as I say, you throw them away. Some will never change, and I guess they die young or spend most of their adult life in prison; but if you can save a few, show them a different way of living, isn't that worth something morally, as well as being a better way of spending tax-payer's money?

Excellent analysis, Stavros, but there's little time being spent reflecting or examining the situation right now. The public thirst is for revenge, and the politicians are unanimously, up to a point, in the mood to give it to them.

And after so many years and lost generations, just where do you start?