Classical Music, Poetry and stuff

[Stavros]

I agree, the problem with music is that when critics discuss it politically, they are not actually talking about the music qua music, which is the flaw in the arguments proposed by Rose and Weiner on Wagner, for example. If Wagner's music is anti-semitic because he was, then it must be the notes, because they are the music: but if C sharp minor or C Major are part of an anti-semitic expression, does it mean that C sharp minor and C Major always are? In other words, it is the reception of those notes that informs not the notes themselves, the extreme reactions to the Rite of Spring being another example. But if music becomes part of a ritual, such as the Horst Wessel Lied, it becomes discredited when its ideology is discredited, but that is a special case -the Nazis adopting/co-opting/enslaving Beethoven and Wagner has not damaged the reception of Beethoven and Wagner since 1945 with the obvious exception of Wagner in Israel -I was writing an article on this topic around the time of Rose's book and discovered that in its early years, Israel had a phobia about the German language -in addition to Wagner, Richard Strauss's music was banned (a ban that was eventually lifted through the efforts of the late Igor Markevich); a singer who included songs by Schubert in a recital had to remove them (in the 1950s). And yet many Israeli immigrants, particularly survivors from Central Europe, had German as a substitute language to Hebrew or could only speak English or French in addition to German. Its one of those issues that has fascinated me for years, but although I recall an essay by Tovey on Beethoven that rejects a link between personal biography and music, I can't recall why or where it is.

[runningdownthatdream]

Tristan and Isolde sweeps me up into its endless despairing crescendo of passion every time I listen to it. I love how Wagner's harmony floats adrift within a chromatic sea of sevenths and ninths and eleventh chords. After Wagner there was nothing left to do but break with the rules of harmony altogether.

If I allowed myself to be burdened by extra-musical meaning I could never listen to a Mozart mass or a passion by Bach, or the liturgical music of Messiaen. Music transcends the little narratives that were once the scaffolds of its composition.

and perhaps even transcends the baseness of its creator..........

[Prospero]

Trish wrote: Tristan and Isolde sweeps me up into its endless despairing crescendo of passion every time I listen to it. I love how Wagner's harmony floats adrift within a chromatic sea of sevenths and ninths and eleventh chords. After Wagner there was nothing left to do but break with the rules of harmony altogether.

If I allowed myself to be burdened by extra-musical meaning I could never listen to a Mozart mass or a passion by Bach, or the liturgical music of Messiaen. Music transcends the little narratives that were once the scaffolds of its composition."

Hugely eloquent Trish. And with regard to the direction music took after Wagner I'd agree.

But i think the narratives that inspired Bach and Mozart were a little more than scaffolds. Without those encompassing narratives this music and much of the rest of the great creations of Western civilisation would not exist. Without similar narratves much of the great architecture and art of Eastern civlisation would not exist. All this is cut through and throughl entangled. Maybe great art inspired by our modern scientific understanding of the universe may emerge, but there has been recious little to riva the great religiously informed art yet.

[Erika1487]

Althogh it is easy to have a strong distain for Wagner, politically and personally, his music stands almost alone in operatic history.
To me personally nothing stands head and sholders above than the second act of Parsifal.
The crowning scene of this Second Act perhaps of the whole work is the duet between Parsifal and Kundry. Herein; the entire gamut of passion, maternal, exquisite, voluptuous, is traversed by a master’s hand. It is with the same passion Wagner wrote the wonderful choral scene for sopranos, sung with such soothing pitch that it only fits in the lovely magic garden of Kilngsor’s castle.
This is written in as many as eighteen separate groups, and frequently in twelve real parts. Its sweet, plaintive melody and graceful rhythm cannot escape notice. Kundry’s tender recital of the woes and sufferings of Parsifal’s mother, an aria sung in minor with low pitch. Later the glissando passage of the harps (through two octaves) to express the act of hurling the spear at Parsifal’s head. It is often cited as the most astonishingly unvocal specimen in all Wagner’s musical writings.

[robertlouis]

Althogh it is easy to have a strong distain for Wagner, politically and personally, his music stands almost alone in operatic history.
To me personally nothing stands head and sholders above than the second act of Parsifal.
The crowning scene of this Second Act perhaps of the whole work is the duet between Parsifal and Kundry. Herein; the entire gamut of passion, maternal, exquisite, voluptuous, is traversed by a master’s hand. It is with the same passion Wagner wrote the wonderful choral scene for sopranos, sung with such soothing pitch that it only fits in the lovely magic garden of Kilngsor’s castle.
This is written in as many as eighteen separate groups, and frequently in twelve real parts. Its sweet, plaintive melody and graceful rhythm cannot escape notice. Kundry’s tender recital of the woes and sufferings of Parsifal’s mother, an aria sung in minor with low pitch. Later the glissando passage of the harps (through two octaves) to express the act of hurling the spear at Parsifal’s head. It is often cited as the most astonishingly unvocal specimen in all Wagner’s musical writings.

I would never for a moment question Wagner's genius, Erika, nor his wonderful facility for innovation. We forget that in the absence of mass communication, recorded music, or anything other than the folk music of countries that has survived separately, composers were the rock stars of their day. It isn't a facile comparison by any means. Wagner's music washes over you in a wave of sensual and emotional power. At that level, only Beethoven and Bach also do that for me - such moments are rare in Mozart, I'm afraid.

[Jackal]

Hey, I was wondering if anyone had recommendations for poetry/spoken word albums/audiobooks.

[robertlouis]

Hey, I was wondering if anyone had recommendations for poetry/spoken word albums/audiobooks.

Alec Guinness's version of The Waste Land is well worth a listen.

[Stavros]

The crowning scene of this Second Act perhaps of the whole work is the duet between Parsifal and Kundry

Erika, there are no duets in Parsifal, only conversations; and while you are entitled to your opinion some would suggest other works and other parts of Parsifal are Wagner at his best, although many people have said that Act II is the only time Parsifal gets interesting dramatically, because Klingsor is wicked and Kundry is a voluptuous deceiver -musically, the resurrection surely cannot be surpassed, but as I say, its a matter of personal taste -the Liebestod? Siegfied's funeral march? The quintet in Meistersinger? Why choose when you can have them all?

[Jackal]

Alec Guinness's version of The Waste Land is well worth a listen.

That sounds great, I'll have to search for it. Have you heard Richard Burton's "The Days of Wilfred Owen"? It is an amazing performance.

[Prospero]

I'd also recommend Richard Burton reading Under Milkwood by Dylan Thomas.