Something to consider.

[yodajazz]

I think the democrats are the less evil of the 2 as it's not like they are beating the doors open for these rights in the first place. The republicans on the hand seemed to be either under hostage by the christian right or they are loading them up with money. I love when they that we should have less goverment intrusion (which is true) but when gay marriage comes up we all know how that goes with them most of the time. I thought this was a secular nation. But I can't go up to anybody and tell themhow to live there lives as long as they aren't going out killing people and such but I digress...

I agree with you. I see the Republican party as needing the Christian right for popular support in elections, and also religion is the best place for Satan to hide, and not be recognized. By Satan, I'm not talking some red two horned creature, but just the concept of negative forces within humanity. And I am specifically talking about Greed, or the love of money, among other things. Money is not evil, but to love money more than general humanity, is the 'sin'. We just lived through the biggest transfer of wealth, to the wealthy in human history. This is not an absolute, but I see money as paying off the Democrats to be quiet, and let them have their way. However I see Republicans as directly aiding the richest to get richer, and at the same time working to convince the less wealthy, that its for their own good, while they 'suck their blood'. They also work a promoting distractor issues, such as gay marriage, terrorism, and out right lies, in order to divert attention, so they can continue their plunder.

Deomocrats have to make some efforts on behalf of working and poorer people, because it's part of thier base. So they are the lesser of two evils.

[Faldur]

Yoda it just amazes me that you can see the world with such a distorted bias. You see the left as this holy, righteous, well meaning group of civil people holding hands singing kumbaya.

Every component you laid out in the conservative party is true. I will argue with you as to what degree. But EQUALLY, the same can be said of the progressive party.

I do not have the pompous position that my party's perfect and yours is screwed up. Both sides are EQUALLY fucked up. I will argue that my positions are better for our country in the long run. And I can only assume you would that your ideals are the ones we should follow. Lets get rid of this "your so screwed up" crap and "were so perfect" and debate the issues.

[Silcc69]

I'm not saying that Bush is racist's or anything but speaking at this University wasn't going to help you win over the minority votes.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/fe...bush-f08.shtml

I'm not sure of the details but blacks use to vote republican a long time ago and they ended up doing something that pissed blacks off so we vote democrat now. Even JC Watts has mentioned how republicans fail to reach out to minorities.

In 2008, Watts announced he was developing a cable news network with the help of Comcast, focusing on a black audience,[42] and that he considered voting for Barack Obama, criticizing the Republican party for not practicing outreach to the black community.[43] Reports showed he contributed to John McCain, but not to Obama.[44]

[TJ347]

I'm not sure of the details but blacks use to vote republican a long time ago and they ended up doing something that pissed blacks off so we vote democrat now. Even JC Watts has mentioned how republicans fail to reach out to minorities.

The shift of the black vote to the Democratic party was largely the result of "Dixie" Democrats migrating to the Republican party around the time of desegregation. Prior to that and going back to Reconstruction, blacks who were able to exercise their right to vote tended to vote Republican.

JC Watts is 100% right in that the Republican party does next to nothing to reach out to minorities, or perhaps more accurately to any minority group outside of Latinos. However, I would argue that if an appreciable number of people belonging to a certain group cannot find their way to a party based on a belief in its platform, spending significant amounts of time and money to try to attract them would be a waste. There are a number of black Republicans and conservatives, but as a black voter you have to be more interested in politics than most to become a Republican, because no one is trying to recruit you. Otherwise, you tend to go with the herd and implicity accept that Republicans are anti-black and so on. This lack of political interest is, in my opinion, a major reason that black voters haven't migrated back to the Republican party in spite of largely agreeing with the party on certain issues.

[TJ347]

Yoda it just amazes me that you can see the world with such a distorted bias. You see the left as this holy, righteous, well meaning group of civil people holding hands singing kumbaya.

Every component you laid out in the conservative party is true. I will argue with you as to what degree. But EQUALLY, the same can be said of the progressive party.

I do not have the pompous position that my party's perfect and yours is screwed up. Both sides are EQUALLY fucked up. I will argue that my positions are better for our country in the long run. And I can only assume you would that your ideals are the ones we should follow. Lets get rid of this "your so screwed up" crap and "were so perfect" and debate the issues.

At this point, sadly, it seems apparent that getting rid of the implicit sense of self-righteousness you mention is not possible. You and I are either rich, and thus interested in preserving our wealth at the expense of the working class and poor, or we're working class and thus stupid because we support a party that exploits us. This is the starting point for the more "open" conversation we're supposed to have now, which is the same starting point that we had before, only repackaged in a more intelligence insulting form. As I said, there will be no worthwhile debate so long as this is where conversation begins, and as it appears that this is the only place several more liberal posters here are willing to begin, there is no point participating in any discussion so long as this continues to be the case.

Yoda, as Faldur already stated more or less, that you continue to be so locked into the mindset that Republicans embody all things wrong with this country is most unfortunate, and all the more so in my opinion because you are probably the most agreeable liberal on the board. If even you can't take a different posture then, what hope is there for the others? And so, we end up back where we started. Wonderful.

[Faldur]

Well said TJ, we sit around here calling each other names. In the next 60 minutes the US Government will borrow another $188 million. On the hour, every hour, 24 times a day.

[yodajazz]

I think its an important distinction. I did not say, or mean to say that Republicans embody all that is wrong. But they embody perhaps the most important wrong, of today. And that is caring more about money than our fellow man. When the US was attacked and entered WW II, people knew there would have to be sacrifices to win. The rich had a much higher tax rate. Even the poor, did things like saving the cooking grease, to contribute to making oil for the war, according to my parents. The rationing of certain goods, was something that affected everyday life for everyone.

You know where this is going. Bush II wars, with tax cuts for the wealthy, was one of many things. Lack of oversight of financial markets, including exempting risky practices which were once illegal (for like 90 years). Ignoring the job outosurcing issue. Indicators show that the wealthy are gaining a greater percentage of the wealth. So why cant they sacrifice and pay the tax rate, they had when the government was in its best financial condition, that is when Clinton left office. Probably everyone, needs to pay more, why cant the wealthiest lead the way, saying thanks for what the US lifestyle has allowed them to gain.

But along with this, is the attitude that the wealthiest deserve what they get, and suffering people dont matter. This is practically saying that they deserve to suffer. Fuck grandma, because she has to sell her home to pay medical bills, or give her home to relatives to avoid it. Meanwhile and CEO of a company, that required a government bailout funds gets a 116 million dollar severence package. Its the atttitude of caring about money, but not your fellow man that I see is the biggest issue of all.

[TJ347]

I think its an important distinction. I did not say, or mean to say that Republicans embody all that is wrong. But they embody perhaps the most important wrong, of today. And that is caring more about money than our fellow man.

Since I know that someone had to have made you aware of the fact that the rich already comprise a substantial part of this country's tax base some time ago, to say nothing of the fact that the tax burden on the middle class is due to the number of people in this country that pay no taxes at all, I won't restate that argument. I'll simply point out that you have just restated the very thing that you begin by saying you did not say.

You continue to present the same argument despite the fact that you have Republican members of this forum who don't fit into your definition of who they are or what they care about, and thus close any avenue for discussion that is of any merit whatsoever. If it's Republicans who care more about money than our fellow man, how do you explain Charlie Rangel and the millions he's "earned" despite having no legitimate means to explain such income? And that's just one example of a Democrat who is supposed to care about the poor demonstrating that his primary concern is making himself rich. By ignoring facts such as these that would discredit the entire premise you operate under, you insult the intelligence of every Republican or conservative who might otherwise have participated in this discussion, and with that said I will now move on, as we have reached an impasse.

[Silcc69]

TJ347, you seem to be level headed guy. I would like to know you opinion on these 2 events that happened with George Soros and Rush Limbaugh. They really don't relate to this thread but................

Sports

In 2005, Soros was a minority partner in a group that tried to buy the Washington Nationals, a Major League baseball team. Some Republican lawmakers suggested that they might move to revoke baseball's antitrust exemption if Soros bought the team.[42] In 2008, Soros' name was associated with AS Roma, an Italian football team but the club was not sold. Soros was also a financial backer of Washington Soccer L.P., the group that owned the operating rights to Major League Soccer club D.C. United when the league was founded in 1995, but the group lost these rights in 2000.[43]


NFL team ownership bid controversy

On October 6, 2009, Limbaugh announced that he was planning on bidding to buy the St. Louis Rams of the National Football League along with current owner of the NHL's St. Louis Blues, Dave Checketts. This was met with opposition by some players, and team owners.[144] NFL Players executive director DeMaurice Smith stated in his opposition that he had "spoken to the Commissioner [Roger Goodell] and [he understood] that this ownership consideration is in the early stages. But sport in America is at its best when it unifies, gives all of us reason to cheer, and when it transcends. Our sport does exactly that when it overcomes division and rejects discrimination and hatred."[145] Limbaugh was eventually dropped from the group that was putting in the bid due to the distraction that came from his consideration.[146]

[TJ347]

TJ347, you seem to be level headed guy. I would like to know you opinion on these 2 events that happened with George Soros and Rush Limbaugh. They really don't relate to this thread but................

Sports

In 2005, Soros was a minority partner in a group that tried to buy the Washington Nationals, a Major League baseball team. Some Republican lawmakers suggested that they might move to revoke baseball's antitrust exemption if Soros bought the team.[42] In 2008, Soros' name was associated with AS Roma, an Italian football team but the club was not sold. Soros was also a financial backer of Washington Soccer L.P., the group that owned the operating rights to Major League Soccer club D.C. United when the league was founded in 1995, but the group lost these rights in 2000.[43]


NFL team ownership bid controversy

On October 6, 2009, Limbaugh announced that he was planning on bidding to buy the St. Louis Rams of the National Football League along with current owner of the NHL's St. Louis Blues, Dave Checketts. This was met with opposition by some players, and team owners.[144] NFL Players executive director DeMaurice Smith stated in his opposition that he had "spoken to the Commissioner [Roger Goodell] and [he understood] that this ownership consideration is in the early stages. But sport in America is at its best when it unifies, gives all of us reason to cheer, and when it transcends. Our sport does exactly that when it overcomes division and rejects discrimination and hatred."[145] Limbaugh was eventually dropped from the group that was putting in the bid due to the distraction that came from his consideration.[146]

Politics at play in both cases, plain and simple. For many people it is impossible to separate a person's political beliefs from our overall view of them, but not all. For example, despite disagreeing with her politically, I think it'd be great fun to hang out with Rachel Maddow, where perhaps ironically to some, I wouldn't want to hang out with Ann Coulter, Rush, Glenn Beck or that imbecile Sean Hannity for a microsecond. Faldur and Knees might feel differently though... especially about Ann.


Oh, and about this...
TJ347: I know you did not put me on your ignore list. If you did, you wouldn't have found this thread because "I" started it. But you are here which proves you lied.

Ineeda SM, putting someone on ignore does not prevent you from seeing threads they have created or that they have posted; it simply prevents the actual post from being displayed. If not for Yodajazz quoting you, I wouldn't have been able to clear this up for you, so thanks for that, Yoda.