Something to consider.

[yodajazz]

And our next contestant TROLL #2 shows up to ruin a good discussion. Exactly what trolls do. They don't know how to discuss anything like adults. They just come in to spread their hate and ruin it for everyone else.

Awwww you poor trolls. It is killing you to be so wrong all the time, isn't it. So you have no choice but to spread hate and lies to get even. There the proof of you being a troll. You just keep proving me to be correct.

I do agree with your initial question. However, it appears to me that people (you refer to as trolls), are addressing your question, with their own perspectives. I think there are enough specific issues, to discuss with resorting to name calling, on both sides here.

And that's the bottom line! Of course, when you think of everything in life as being black and white, this is the kind of illogic that results. Now he's apparently trying to register people to vote on behalf of Obama... It's better than being a troll though.

I dont believe this is about Obama. Its about the party that is openly against you/us. Perhaps Democrats fall short of their ideal of openess for everyone. The Republican ideal, is that you are a sick, perverted person. But it seems to me that lots of Republicans are against their own self interests, especially those here. That is, unless you make more than $250,000, a year. I'll let you in on a secret; I dont make that much.

[Faldur]

I do agree with your initial question. However, it appears to me that people (you refer to as trolls), are addressing your question, with their own perspectives. I think there are enough specific issues, to discuss with resorting to name calling, on both sides here.

[trish]

Well, okay...Faldur's not a troll. But he does troll quite a bit.

[Silcc69]

I think the democrats are the less evil of the 2 as it's not like they are beating the doors open for these rights in the first place. The republicans on the hand seemed to be either under hostage by the christian right or they are loading them up with money. I love when they that we should have less goverment intrusion (which is true) but when gay marriage comes up we all know how that goes with them most of the time. I thought this was a secular nation. But I can't go up to anybody and tell themhow to live there lives as long as they aren't going out killing people and such but I digress...

[TJ347]

I dont believe this is about Obama. Its about the party that is openly against you/us. Perhaps Democrats fall short of their ideal of openess for everyone. The Republican ideal, is that you are a sick, perverted person. But it seems to me that lots of Republicans are against their own self interests, especially those here. That is, unless you make more than $250,000, a year. I'll let you in on a secret; I dont make that much.

First off, the way in which you have defined Republicans and the Republican party, which is overly simplistic to say the least, initially made me decide against responding, but knowing that you are more reasonable than others who would make a similar assessment, I quickly changed my mind. To that end, let me explain my understanding of what you and a few other posters have said from where I stand politically.

I would begin by saying that contrary to what several of the more liberal posters here believe and would have others believe (and what you, at a minimum, strongly implied in your post as well), being a Republican does not necessarily mean that you are rich, white, anti-LGBT, or pro-offshore drilling any more than being a Democrat necessarily means the opposite. Simply by employing a minimum of logic one would have to conclude that there are a number of Democrats who are both racists and anti-gay marriage for instance, yet INeeda SM (for example, and among others) claims to seek open discussion while operating under the illusion that members of either political party are of a group mind on all issues, which is evident in virtually every single one of his posts. When you begin by taking an extreme and utterly illogical position such as all Republicans are idiots, irredeemable and/or evil incarnate, and continue to hold that position in light of all evidence to the contrary, the end is a thread that descends into childish name calling in short order and is thus of no worth whatsoever to anyone who wastes time reading it. Bottom line is, if we would simply label those who don't echo our sentiments "trolls", make comments insulting their intelligence for having the gall to espouse a differing opinion, and generally proceed under the assumption that any one political party has all the answers, then there is no value to even having this section of the forum and people with any sense will avoid commenting in it entirely going forward.

Moving on, you specifically mentioned people here being against their self-interests... The first thing that came to my mind was when Charles Barkley said something along the lines of "Poor black people have been voting Democratic for fifty years, and they're still poor". As most people I should think know, blacks vote Democratic overwhelmingly, and this despite unique circumstances that would incline a logical mind to expect otherwise. For example, whenever polled, the majority of black respondents oppose gay marriage, while at the same time supporting a political party that offers lukewarm support to gay marriage. Despite being more likely to be victims of violent crime and more likely to live in a high-crime area, black voters have overwhelmingly supported Chicago mayor Richard Daly, who has steadfastly attempted to prevent private citizens in that city from legally owning firearms with which they might defend themselves. Lastly, it is my personal experience that most blacks are entirely unaware that their right to vote, let alone the fact that they are recognized as fully human in these United States, is directly tied not to Democratic, but to Republican efforts. I could go on, but suffice it to say that these are a few clear examples of Democrats who act against their own self-interests, and it holds true here just as much as it does in the "real" world based on comments I've read in this part of the forum from black members.

Finally, I identify as a Republican because I am in favor of more things opposed by Democratic members of government than the reverse. That I consider myself a Republican despite Republican members of government not being friendly to the LGBT community does not mean I am against my self-interests... This is but one interest among many for me, and is hardly the most important. YMMV.

[onmyknees]

First off, the way in which you have defined Republicans and the Republican party, which is overly simplistic to say the least, initially made me decide against responding, but knowing that you are more reasonable than others who would make a similar assessment, I quickly changed my mind. To that end, let me explain my understanding of what you and a few other posters have said from where I stand politically.

I would begin by saying that contrary to what several of the more liberal posters here believe and would have others believe (and what you, at a minimum, strongly implied in your post as well), being a Republican does not necessarily mean that you are rich, white, anti-LGBT, or pro-offshore drilling any more than being a Democrat necessarily means the opposite. Simply by employing a minimum of logic one would have to conclude that there are a number of Democrats who are both racists and anti-gay marriage for instance, yet INeeda SM (for example, and among others) claims to seek open discussion while operating under the illusion that members of either political party are of a group mind on all issues, which is evident in virtually every single one of his posts. When you begin by taking an extreme and utterly illogical position such as all Republicans are idiots, irredeemable and/or evil incarnate, and continue to hold that position in light of all evidence to the contrary, the end is a thread that descends into childish name calling in short order and is thus of no worth whatsoever to anyone who wastes time reading it. Bottom line is, if we would simply label those who don't echo our sentiments "trolls", make comments insulting their intelligence for having the gall to espouse a differing opinion, and generally proceed under the assumption that any one political party has all the answers, then there is no value to even having this section of the forum and people with any sense will avoid commenting in it entirely going forward.

Moving on, you specifically mentioned people here being against their self-interests... The first thing that came to my mind was when Charles Barkley said something along the lines of "Poor black people have been voting Democratic for fifty years, and they're still poor". As most people I should think know, blacks vote Democratic overwhelmingly, and this despite unique circumstances that would incline a logical mind to expect otherwise. For example, whenever polled, the majority of black respondents oppose gay marriage, while at the same time supporting a political party that offers lukewarm support to gay marriage. Despite being more likely to be victims of violent crime and more likely to live in a high-crime area, black voters have overwhelmingly supported Chicago mayor Richard Daly, who has steadfastly attempted to prevent private citizens in that city from legally owning firearms with which they might defend themselves. Lastly, it is my personal experience that most blacks are entirely unaware that their right to vote, let alone the fact that they are recognized as fully human in these United States, is directly tied not to Democratic, but to Republican efforts. I could go on, but suffice it to say that these are a few clear examples of Democrats who act against their own self-interests, and it holds true here just as much as it does in the "real" world based on comments I've read in this part of the forum from black members.

Finally, I identify as a Republican because I am in favor of more things opposed by Democratic members of government than the reverse. That I consider myself a Republican despite Republican members of government not being friendly to the LGBT community does not mean I am against my self-interests... This is but one interest among many for me, and is hardly the most important. YMMV.

In an earlier incarnation Trish wrote some wonderfully worded essays, but this is worthy of George Will or Krauthammer.

Strangely, the more liberal and confrontational a person is...the more polar opposite I become if for nothing else to contrast the difference.

Great Read TJ.

[trish]

Strangely, the more liberal and confrontational a person is...the more polar opposite I become if for nothing else to contrast the difference.

I hadn't noticed. Has anyone else?

[Ineeda SM]

For what it's worth, I stopped replying because I didn't see any point in arguing with 2 specific worthless assholes anymore. It no longer made any sense.

TJ347: I know you did not put me on your ignore list. If you did, you wouldn't have found this thread because "I" started it. But you are here which proves you lied.

I have called TJ347 and ONMYKNEES trolls because they are. I have had many debates and discussions with others who lean to the right. And there have not been any problems between any of them and myself. I have never called anyone else here trolls because they are not. There was a 3rd person I called a troll, but that was solved like adults privately.

I have also never said that all republicans are racists, and are always wrong. TJ347 and ONMYKNEES do not post here to debate or discuss anything. They are here to spread hate and lies through arguments and name calling, and nothing more. They are the only 2 people on this website that are considered trolls. They are the only 2 people on the website that I have had any problems with. And they are the only 2 people here who just troll every thread they post in. They are the only 2 people who can argue against pure 100% facts and think it is funny and being clever. Sometimes I wonder if they are both the same person with different screen names.

I started this thread to ask a simple question. I posed the question in a friendly manner without calling anyone names or trying to hurt anyone. It was an honest question that I really wanted to understand. It was going well with good responses and like adults, until ONMYKNEES and TJ347 showed up with their trolling arguments to disrupt the original reason for the thread.

At that point, I just laughed my ass off at how stupid I am for trying to have a normal conversation in this political forum with 2 trolls who love to hate and disrupt what is normal for their enjoyment. I realized I was becoming an asshole by responding to assholes. That's when it hit me that I was wasting my time and it was no longer worth the effort. Because no matter what I or anyone else here said, or what facts were posted, that TJ347 and ONMYKNEES would just respond with a troll post to call everyone childish names and say how wrong they were.

Debates and discussions on politics are always more than one sided with extreme positions and viewpoints. And they can get heated and even a little nasty. I have no problem with that. In fact I like it. But when every fact is just called a lie for no other reason than personal entertainment, and to spread hate and promote the republican party as a bunch of "Leave It To Beaver" types, that is called trolling and no longer fun. It just isn't worth it.

I am sure that the 2 trolls will come back with the same old bull shit they have been shoveling. I expect it and I really don't give a damn anymore. It will give me a good laugh and convince me that ignoring them was a wise choice. I only made this post to vent and say what needed to be said. And you two fools can kiss each others ass and rejoice, because this is my very last post in the political threads. I really don't care what you 2 think or say, as your words are just that of trolls. That makes you and your words, meaningless and unimportant. I have a life beyond your bull shit. You 2 are just internet trolls and that is all you will ever be. It's all you know how to do.

To the rest of you, thanks for the debates and some good conversations. At least you acted like adults and knew the limits.

Take care everyone. Have fun. I know I will. See ya.

[TJ347]

In an earlier incarnation Trish wrote some wonderfully worded essays, but this is worthy of George Will or Krauthammer.

Thanks, but I think that was quite a ways off!

[yodajazz]

For what it's worth, I stopped replying because I didn't see any point in arguing with 2 specific worthless assholes anymore. It no longer made any sense.

TJ347: I know you did not put me on your ignore list. If you did, you wouldn't have found this thread because "I" started it. But you are here which proves you lied.

I have called TJ347 and ONMYKNEES trolls because they are. I have had many debates and discussions with others who lean to the right. And there have not been any problems between any of them and myself. I have never called anyone else here trolls because they are not. There was a 3rd person I called a troll, but that was solved like adults privately.

I have also never said that all republicans are racists, and are always wrong. TJ347 and ONMYKNEES do not post here to debate or discuss anything. They are here to spread hate and lies through arguments and name calling, and nothing more. They are the only 2 people on this website that are considered trolls. They are the only 2 people on the website that I have had any problems with. And they are the only 2 people here who just troll every thread they post in. They are the only 2 people who can argue against pure 100% facts and think it is funny and being clever. Sometimes I wonder if they are both the same person with different screen names.

I started this thread to ask a simple question. I posed the question in a friendly manner without calling anyone names or trying to hurt anyone. It was an honest question that I really wanted to understand. It was going well with good responses and like adults, until ONMYKNEES and TJ347 showed up with their trolling arguments to disrupt the original reason for the thread.

At that point, I just laughed my ass off at how stupid I am for trying to have a normal conversation in this political forum with 2 trolls who love to hate and disrupt what is normal for their enjoyment. I realized I was becoming an asshole by responding to assholes. That's when it hit me that I was wasting my time and it was no longer worth the effort. Because no matter what I or anyone else here said, or what facts were posted, that TJ347 and ONMYKNEES would just respond with a troll post to call everyone childish names and say how wrong they were.

Debates and discussions on politics are always more than one sided with extreme positions and viewpoints. And they can get heated and even a little nasty. I have no problem with that. In fact I like it. But when every fact is just called a lie for no other reason than personal entertainment, and to spread hate and promote the republican party as a bunch of "Leave It To Beaver" types, that is called trolling and no longer fun. It just isn't worth it.

I am sure that the 2 trolls will come back with the same old bull shit they have been shoveling. I expect it and I really don't give a damn anymore. It will give me a good laugh and convince me that ignoring them was a wise choice. I only made this post to vent and say what needed to be said. And you two fools can kiss each others ass and rejoice, because this is my very last post in the political threads. I really don't care what you 2 think or say, as your words are just that of trolls. That makes you and your words, meaningless and unimportant. I have a life beyond your bull shit. You 2 are just internet trolls and that is all you will ever be. It's all you know how to do.

To the rest of you, thanks for the debates and some good conversations. At least you acted like adults and knew the limits.

Take care everyone. Have fun. I know I will. See ya.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think you are better than this. I know you strongly disagree with things that they say. But if you believe their wrong, you can make specific points where they are wrong. You say they express hate. How about mentioning a specific areas? I think that most Republicans think that they are good people, so you saying they are hate-filled is a disconnect, unless you can address specific issues. I want to say certain things, about Republicans, but its better if you think them through for yourself. I have found that you gain strength the more difficult arguments that you have to deal with. It may make you have to find documentation, to support your arguments. And then that would be somthing you can continue to use. So in short, if you seek to understand their arguments, it makes you a better person. And perhaps you may get someone to concede a point, that makes them a better person.

All too often people only associate with those that agree with them, and they lose something. They lose a portion of truth, in the big picture. There are better ways to to look at things, that leave the doors open to communication. Instead of saying people are trolls, think of them as misguided. We all make decisions, based upon the facts we are given. And think about this forum as a microcosm of the world: We all have a lot in common, we are just choosing to discuss our differences at this time.