Peace loving Progressives

[TJ347]

What I like is how some people on this board, convinced of their own superior intellect, are completely ignorant of the fact that everything they say, indeed everything they believe, is based on inherent bias. "Republicans who aren't rich support billionaires who only want to take what little they have away from them!" It's a good thing you're here to tell us the truth! And what is it you do for a living again... Rocket scientist, right?

The rich and powerful who dominate everyone else are found in both parties, and the only fools here are those who think otherwise. We only insult our own intelligence by pretending Obama, Bush, Clinton or anyone else doesn't think about themselves first, their well-heeled friends second, and re-election third. There is no fourth consideration.

[robertlouis]

Had you only taken our guns away 235 years ago, we might still under your rule..

Yep, back to the mythic past, conveniently ignoring the daily holocaust of gun violence on your streets.

[trish]

Besides, it wasn't the guns so much as the hiding behind the rocks and the trees.

[robertlouis]

Are we back on guns? Listen, it's very simple... If you want to ban gun ownership by private citizens, call upon your state senators to act on it, and vote them out if they won't. Stop trying to convince people who are firmly on the other side of the fence of the absurdity of civilians owning firearms, as it's a waste of time and energy.

That said, can you imagine what would happen if the government decided, a la Great Britain, to do away with civilian gun ownership? I should think the result would be the opposite of "everybody being safer". Hundreds of thousands dead is a very real possiblity, maybe more.

Borne out of course by the statistics which show that in the same period the US had 9,400 homicides committed with firearms and the UK just 14.

Stop violence, arm everyone instead. Yep, that'll work.

[TJ347]

What you don't understand is that stats for the UK post gun ban are irrelevant when theorizing as to what the stats might be were the US to ban civilian gun ownership. In this country, as opposed to yours, many people would not simply surrender their weapons to the local police station. This would put law enforcement in the unenviable position of trying to forceably retrieve them, which would undoubtedly end in bloodshed. Despite not being an American, surely you have enough of an understanding of American culture that you can see that as a logical outcome? The reasons surrounding our break from England are in large part the chief reason guns are so ingrained in American culture. As this was never a large part of your culture, I doubt you can possibly understand why I and many other Americans would never turn our weapons in to the government voluntarily, so it is likely pointless for me to try to explain any further than I already have.

As to the UK post gun ban, it appears illegal use of edged weapons has risen significantly. This is not at all surprising, seeing as England was both conquered and united under the blade, as it were. As I said before, guns are not necessary for us to kill each other. We have never had a problem doing that.

[robertlouis]

What you don't understand is that stats for the UK post gun ban are irrelevant when theorizing as to what the stats might be were the US to ban civilian gun ownership. In this country, as opposed to yours, many people would not simply surrender their weapons to the local police station. This would put law enforcement in the unenviable position of trying to forceably retrieve them, which would undoubtedly end in bloodshed. Despite not being an American, surely you have enough of an understanding of American culture that you can see that as a logical outcome? The reasons surrounding our break from England are in large part the chief reason guns are so ingrained in American culture. As this was never a large part of your culture, I doubt you can possibly understand why I and many other Americans would never turn our weapons in to the government voluntarily, so it is likely pointless for me to try to explain any further than I already have.

As to the UK post gun ban, it appears illegal use of edged weapons has risen significantly. This is not at all surprising, seeing as England was both conquered and united under the blade, as it were. As I said before, guns are not necessary for us to kill each other. We have never had a problem doing that.

Point taken. I can certainly see that as a potential outcome in the circumstances and in light of that any move to severely restrict the availability and use of weapons in the US is realistically doomed to failure.

It doesn't, however alter my discomfort with the fetishisation of guns in your culture and my heartfelt thanks that in the UK the possession of firearms is still a minute exception rather than the norm.

[TJ347]

"Fetishisation"? I suppose so. After all, it seems the biggest summer blockbusters are replete with guns, missile launchers and fantastic explosions. Anyway, if simply owning guns makes one a "gun fetishist" in your book, then I'm guilty as charged. That said, contrary to what people like Trish and Hippi might have you think, I neither feel a gun is some type of penile extension, nor do I feel it turns me into "The Terminator". I do feel safer with it, but there are people who feel safe without carrying a gun. What to do when I will not be converted to their way of thinking, nor will they come around to my way of thought?

I'll tell you what I'm most certainly not willing to do. I'm not willing to let someone's theory that it would probably make our society safer compel me to give up my guns. I have theories as to what would make our society less obese, but you don't see me on a crusade to put Krispy Kreme out of business. Personal choice and all that, you understand. Now Trish would at this point go into gun death stats (and you as well), but you know what? Viewing the total gun deaths in this country as compared to the number of legally owned guns out there, we're actually doing quite well. Understand, it is tragic when a fourth grader in Georgia gets hold of his father's revolver and accidentally shoots and kills his friend. However, what does that have to do with my guns? Unless I'm that kids father, nothing at all. And this is my answer to any and all stats one might present. Did I contribute to that number? If not, how can you quote that stat to me as evidence that I'm wrong in my position? I respect your position on the matter, as I do everyone's really, but no one has ever said anything sensible about my gun ownership that has caused me to reconsider it for even a second.

[robertlouis]

"Fetishisation"? I suppose so. After all, it seems the biggest summer blockbusters are replete with guns, missile launchers and fantastic explosions. Anyway, if simply owning guns makes one a "gun fetishist" in your book, then I'm guilty as charged. That said, contrary to what people like Trish and Hippi might have you think, I neither feel a gun is some type of penile extension, nor do I feel it turns me into "The Terminator". I do feel safer with it, but there are people who feel safe without carrying a gun. What to do when I will not be converted to their way of thinking, nor will they come around to my way of thought?

I'll tell you what I'm most certainly not willing to do. I'm not willing to let someone's theory that it would probably make our society safer compel me to give up my guns. I have theories as to what would make our society less obese, but you don't see me on a crusade to put Krispy Kreme out of business. Personal choice and all that, you understand. Now Trish would at this point go into gun death stats (and you as well), but you know what? Viewing the total gun deaths in this country as compared to the number of legally owned guns out there, we're actually doing quite well. Understand, it is tragic when a fourth grader in Georgia gets hold of his father's revolver and accidentally shoots and kills his friend. However, what does that have to do with my guns? Unless I'm that kids father, nothing at all. And this is my answer to any and all stats one might present. Did I contribute to that number? If not, how can you quote that stat to me as evidence that I'm wrong in my position? I respect your position on the matter, as I do everyone's really, but no one has ever said anything sensible about my gun ownership that has caused me to reconsider it for even a second.

I respect your personal position and doubt neither your sincerity nor your sense of responsibility for a moment. I guess to some extent it's the difference between an essentially individualistic society such as the US, which does have its paler reflection here in the UK, and the more communitarian type of society such as Scotland where I grew up, and where we experienced the horrible tragedy of Dunblane in the 90s. An aunt of mine taught in that school, and although she was unharmed, she was so traumatised that she had to take medical retirement shortly afterwards. Andy Murray the tennis player was in her class on the day of the shooting.

The difference here was that rather than go through a bout of handwringing and then carry on as before as tends to be the case in the US after another school or campus massacre, we made our laws relating to individual access to guns even tighter, and I do very much believe that that restrictive environment greatly reduces the likelihood of further incidents. I can think of three such in the last 30 or so years - Hungerford in 1986, Dunblane in 1995 and Cumbria last year.

At the same time I do also recognise that your current position in the US would make similar restrictions impossible, but please forgive me for thinking that's a shame for the greater safety of the wider population.

[Prospero]

Is the right to bear arms as enshrined in your constitition modifiable only by an amendment to said constitution or could a simple federal law modify it. or indeed could it be changed at state level?

[trish]

I wish assholes would stop guessing at what I would or wouldn't say. If I want to take part in this conversation, I'll deliver my own lines, thank you.