RIP Ron Santo

[JoePitt]

One of the top 10 3B in history yet never voted into the Hall of Fame.

[ed_jaxon]

Nice guy who loved his team.

Not sure if his stats really earn him a spot in the HOF but definitely a Chicago icon.

I seldom would listen to the Cubs on the radio but when I did he invariably was entertaining like an old senile benign uncle.

Last season some players name reminded him of the song Kumbaya but he could not remember it so he spent the next five minutes trying to recall the song. When he did he started to sing it. Classic Santo trainwreck.

But in my mind I will always remember he screaming "he dropped the ball, HE DROPPED THE BALL" after the Cubs left fielder made an error that effectively eliminated them from the playoffs.

He was a hero and an inspiration to many Cubs fans. The .277 and lack of playoffs dooms his chances though.

[JoePitt]

Not sure if his stats really earn him a spot in the HOF but definitely a Chicago icon.

Ed? It's the stats that say he's a HOF'er.

12th most HR by a 3B (85th overall)
12th most RBI by a 3B (86th)
14th most H by a 3B (151st)
11th most BB by a 3B (73rd)
8th highest WAR by a 3B (105th)
5 Golden Gloves (only 6 3B have more)
Voted to 9 All-Star games

BTW, that .277 BA only looks bad to somebody who doesn't know their baseball history. Take a look at the NL BAs during the 60s (.255, .261, .245, .249, .243). Santo was decidedly above average all decade. Then you add in his huge walk totals and you get a player very adverse to making outs. Finally, you factor in some of the best power that position has ever seen. Power that was also suppressed by the times he played in.

You could even make an argument that he should be top 5 overall 3B when you combine defense with all his offensive stats. THERE IS NO STATISTICAL REASON RONNIE ISN'T IN THE HOF. And the no playoffs BS didn't keep out Billy Williams, Ernie Banks or Fergie Jenkins. It can be argued the Santo was more dominant at his position than either Jenkins or Williams, maybe even Banks since he played more games at 1B than SS in his career.

[ed_jaxon]

I won't argue that his stats put him in the conversation which is why he has gotten as close as he has over the years.

I know a little of my history and love a good baseball conversation so here goes.

60's and early 70's were a pitcher dominated era especially 1968 with two of the most dominant seasonal performances by McClain and Gibson.

He was always in Brooks shadow as a third baseman and later Schmidt. I would compare him to his fellow third baseman of that era Ken Boyer who also had 5 gold gloves and similar offensive stats. Both are loved by their fans but have not made it in. Boyer did win a championship in '64 though. Bottom line is that there were not a lot of great 3rd basemen at the time.

While his stats put him in the conversation those dudes who vote look at things like championships, how you are perceived in the baseball community and other intangibles. The collapse of '69 is brought up every year he did not get in, as is the fact that you mentioned,that three other members of a non championship winning team already being in. Fergie, Billy and Ernie are far ahead of him statistically imho and look how long it took Fergie to get in.

I am not sure if you are in Chicago but it is incredible the amount of time that WGN is devoting to him. Undoubtedly he will get a deserved statue outside of Wrigley.

Now in the interest of full disclosure and to give my baseball background a small display, I was a Cubs fan in the early 70's. Would race home to see them right after school let out. Cardenal, Morales and Monday in the outfield with Kessinger at short. I loved that team. How they traded Monday after the mf saved the flag is beyond me. Trillo, Hundley and that pitching staff (Holtzman, Jenkins, etc) was fun to watch unfortunately they had the bad luck to be playing at the same time as the Reds Pirates and Cardinals.

Over the years I got to see the organization for what it really was; content and willing to allow great player to walk away. Buckner, Madlock and Maddux all exemplified the teams willingness to not compete because Wrigley was for the most part filled regardless of what crap they would put out on the field. I eventually became a huge fan of the White Sox organization.

These are my personal reflections but my experience goes a little deeper and if we ever meet up for a beer I will share it then.

I firmly believe that Santo's worse enemy on his election was himself. Every year the camera's would be there when he got the disappointing news showing him weeping. Him always saying he knew he belonged there did not help him as well. In the end it is an election, a popularity contest if you will.

He was a great ambassador for the Cubs but Buck O'Neill deserves it before him.

[flabbybody]

277 BA is whats kept him out.
even in the pitching dominated era that Ron played in, that's a very troublesome stat for a potential hall of fame

[JoePitt]

277 BA is whats kept him out.
even in the pitching dominated era that Ron played in, that's a very troublesome stat for a potential hall of fame

There are many other players already in the HOF, some with much lower BAs. Here's a partial list :

Harmon Killebrew, Bill Mazeroski, Ozzie Smith, Reggie Jackson, Gary Carter, Luis Aparicio, Mike Schmidt, Brooks Robinson, Johnny Bench, Pee Wee Reece, Carlton Fisk, Joe Morgan, Willie McCovey, Eddie Matthews, Phil Rizzuto, Ernie Banks, Roy Campenella, Cal Ripken.

To keep anybody out based solely on one of the most overrated stats in baseball is completely ludicrous. OBA is a much better stat and he would be just below the median HOFer (.376 vs .362) His slugging is actually above the median (.464 to .462). His OPS would rank 82nd in the Hall right after Dave Winfield.

[JoePitt]

He was always in Brooks shadow as a third baseman and later Schmidt. I would compare him to his fellow third baseman of that era Ken Boyer who also had 5 gold gloves and similar offensive stats. Both are loved by their fans but have not made it in. Boyer did win a championship in '64 though. Bottom line is that there were not a lot of great 3rd basemen at the time.

Superficially their stats look similar, but I don't think Boyer was nearly as good as Santo at the plate. Granted he looks to be the superior defender though. Santo's peak seasons were over 33% better than Boyer's. Boyer had less power and walked much less than Ronnie. In addition, I believe that Ron's numbers would have been even better had he not been weighed down by the juvenile diabetes.

his stats put him in the conversation those dudes who vote look at things like championships, how you are perceived in the baseball community and other intangibles. The collapse of '69 is brought up every year he did not get in, as is the fact that you mentioned,that three other members of a non championship winning team already being in. Fergie, Billy and Ernie are far ahead of him statistically imho and look how long it took Fergie to get in.

Ron had a higher batting average, on base percentage and slugging percentage than Ernie Banks. The only category where he surpasses Santo is home runs. Billy Williams was NOT that far ahead of him offensively either. In fact, he had a LOWER OBA. In addition, he played in LF for the vast majority of his career. Santo had much more defensive value. Plus as I mentioned earlier Banks played more games at 1B in his career. He is not a top 10 all-time 1B, Santo is a top 10 3B. Billy Williams is not a top 10 OF, Santo is. Jenkins is not a top ten SP, Santo is. And as for O'Neil, there are already enough 1B in the HOF. His stats are far inferior to Santo's as well. There is a decided lack of 3B though. Even ignoring the fact that he's been one of the best 3B ever, he's in the top 100 all time in HR, BB & RBI. He's 119th in XBH, 151st in H, 104th in TB, 112th in Times on Base and 114th in RC. That puts him the 99% percentile.

Yes, I'm from Chicago. Grew up watching most of those same players on the TV while doing my homework. I've always been a fan of both teams though. I went to all those perfect attendance/straight A games with my friends to Comiskey since I live on the South Side. It wasn't until I was in my 20s when I went to my first game at Wrigley. I never got jaded like you did apparently.

I'm also well aware of all the petty hatreds and bullshit that's kept him out. I was responding your statement "not sure if his stats really earn him a spot in the hall". There is only ONE stat where he's below average and as I said to flabby, it's a godawful one to base any argument on. Only arguing about wins for a pitcher would be more ridiculous.

I could give a rat's ass about his performance in the booth and outside the park. Pat Hughes is a terrific play-by-play man and relished all the opportunities Santo gave him to needle the crap out of him. He's in the top 1% in Major League history at his position. Finally, I think I have bought you a beer before. I don't think baseball came up though ....

PS. That was Brant Brown that dropped the ball.

[ed_jaxon]

yup, Brant Brown. And Ronnie was going "Oh no! Oh Nooooooo!" They have been playing that here today.

We are having the Classic Money Ball Sabermetrics argument here. When you get right down to it there are some pretty established benchmarks for sure inclusion in the HOF.

.300 Average
500 Home Runs
300 Wins

Those who are above those plateaus are pretty sure to be elected; those below need to have something else. Good list of players above. Those that I saw play pretty much were incredible. Reggie? His playoff exhibitions were super human both with the A's and the Yanks. Brooks and Ozzie were two of the best defensive players ever. Cal? The streak.

Santo was a nice player and his stats were good but OPS, base on balls and OBA are relatively new stats to be used to evaluate a player and the guys who vote on the HOF don't strike me as being the type to rely on those measures. Ronnie did not have those intangibles that would make him a HOF player.

Is it fair? I don't know but it is what it is. I will say this though, if the stats guys keep making inroads into the game he might have a chance down the road.

As for Buck being in, his contribution to the game as a scout, player and goodwill ambassador would get him my vote.

[serial138]

I miss Santo's ramblings on the radio. Now I won't even be able to go home and hear them. I used to love just listening to his nonsense when I drove to work, and listen to Pat Hughes verbally facepalm.

I'm not the stats guy you all are, but I do think he belongs in the Hall. But I would agree, his publicity campaigns and all that probably are what kept him out. HoF players do not like to be told who to elect, same with sports writers. I bet he gets in soon though as a sympathy vote now.

[ed_jaxon]

Somewhere Ron Santo just clicked his heels together.

Congrats to Ronnie, his family and the Cubs organization.