Are we transpeople just eccentric, not giving a flying fuck about approval?

[phobun]

The trouble is that the difference is statistically significant. The transsexual population has a mean IQ that is one standard deviation away from the mean IQ of the general population. 16 points of IQ is a huge difference.

What is your source for this? Provide the reference.

[wavefn]

That's certainly possible... then one can take the position that thinking hard makes the brain more fit, and can raise IQ a bit.

The trouble is that the difference is statistically significant. The transsexual population has a mean IQ that is one standard deviation away from the mean IQ of the general population. 16 points of IQ is a huge difference. (Consider a person with an IQ of 84 ... that's just a bit more than Forest Gump.)

The study you cited does not have the capacity to compare the IQ means of the general population vs. transsexuals. (It's not a poor study, that was just not its intent.) They administered IQ tests to patients presenting to a single clinic in the Netherlands. There is obvious selection bias (wikipedia it) and the study should not be interpreted as stating that all transsexuals have a mean IQ of 111. This is like administering an IQ test at a bar frequented by MIT students and stating that the mean IQ of all bar patrons everywhere is 145.

What they did find: among people presenting to that single clinic for gender identity issues, homosexual patients had a lower mean IQ than heterosexual ones. (I spent <2 minutes reading it and have no idea how they defined sexual orientation.)

To another poster:
Two means with an overlapping standard deviation does not mean a study failed to reach statistical significance, though the SD is related to the standard error of the mean (SEM). The SEM is used for this purpose. (95% CI = Mean +/- 1.96*SEM.)

[BrendaQG]

First of all you need to combine the IQ scores of both types of transsexual that that study was looking for to get the true value for the whole population.

Second other studies have looked at this issue All of which place the mean value of the IQ of the whole transsexual population (young, old, MTF and FTM) around 116 Such as http://www.springerlink.com/content/p138570141484134/
And this one.
http://eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED390004.pdf

I can cite others. I have yet to find one that say... measured a bunch of transsexuals with a mean IQ less than average which would blow my theory out of the water.

[wavefn]

First of all you need to combine the IQ scores of both types of transsexual that that study was looking for to get the true value for the whole population.

Second other studies have looked at this issue All of which place the mean value of the IQ of the whole transsexual population (young, old, MTF and FTM) around 116 Such as http://www.springerlink.com/content/p138570141484134/
And this one.
http://eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED390004.pdf

I can cite others. I have yet to find one that say... measured a bunch of transsexuals with a mean IQ less than average which would blow my theory out of the water.

The first link you provided is also not of sufficient methodological quality to determine the actual mean IQ of all transsexuals. They say NOTHING of their recruitment methods or their subject demographics. Further, they find a mean IQ of 107 +/- 13.1. (The authors are 95% confident that their subjects' mean IQ is between 94 and 120.) Their 95% confidence interval includes 100, thus they must "accept the null hypothesis" and conclude that there does not exist a difference in the mean IQ of their subjects and the general population.

Perhaps transsexuals DO have a higher average IQ, but this study is (low-quality) evidence against that (e.g., that their average IQ is the same as the population average).

Cannot read the second link on my laptop, so cannot evaluate. Not intending to bust chops, but misinterpretation of statistics is obviously a pet peeve of mine.

[phobun]

And this one.
http://eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED390004.pdf

This is one student's thesis and the results do not support your claims.

I can cite others. I have yet to find one that say... measured a bunch of transsexuals with a mean IQ less than average which would blow my theory out of the water.

You aren't helping your contentions with any of the studies cited so far.

[nbtch101]

They say NOTHING of their recruitment methods or their subject demographics.

Don't know if this piece of information helps much, but anyways... The study is Dutch, I read through it a couple of months ago actually. If I'm not misinformed transsexuals go through the public health care system in the Netherlands. Ergo, they most likely have specialized and centralized "gender identity clinics" that nearly ALL transsexuals pass through at some point in their transitions, much like Sweden, Canada (I think), and the US in the 60-70's(?).

[SuperKirstenTS]

What's the value of IQ these days?

xXx Kirsten

P.S. not a joke

[GrimFusion]

What's the value of IQ these days?

xXx Kirsten

P.S. not a joke

What kind of question is that? Are you trying to ask what value an intelligence quota has in our society anymore, or are you asking for some kind of population average IQ?

Honestly, IQ doesn't matter that much at all. I've taken two official IQ tests and three unofficial ones and my means score is 153. I'm not all that intelligent. I know a lot about a few things which most people don't find interesting. IQ tests quantify problem solving ability and measure the amount of information a person can store and recall quickly. Einstein was considered to have an IQ score of 160. That doesn't mean you're the next Einstein if you score that high.

In contrast, I've known people who have scored 100-ish and pwn all over me in debates. I've seen people score damn close to me and be some of the most ghetto, backward, closed-minded mother fuckers I've ever talked to. Intelligence is really about motivation and application. If you can't motivate yourself to learn or apply your intelligence, IQ just doesn't matter.

As far as an average is concerned, I believe America's average IQ is 98.
That sounds a little low until you consider that there are only 16 other countries in the world with a higher average IQ. If you want to break that down, Asian-Americans take the win at an average of 110, Caucasian-Americans come in at 103, Latino-Americans score an average of 91, and African-Americans bring in the bottom score of 89.

That really doesn't mean jack shit, though.
GO READ A BOOK, MOTHER FUCKERS. lol.

[GrimFusion]

It's human instinct for "like" people to group together and search for more similarities, but I think this is a bit of a stretch. Bella has a point; IQ certainly does vary from decade to decade. It's just my opinion, but I believe periods of stress can have a dramatic effect on lowering IQ; likewise, comfort and stability in life and relations both financially and socially can restore it. I might just be pulling that out of my ass, though.

For something to be true, there needs to be some kind of cause and effect. A reason why the transgendered need a higher IQ to successfully transition; or perhaps a reason why a small percentage of people with high IQ's aren't comfortable with their birth gender while a vastly smaller group of people with low IQ's feel the same.

It's not intelligent to put up with daily or weekly shots, mood swings from hell, bouts of depression and introversion, harassment, surgery, and losing friends and family just to feel more comfortable. I'm not saying you've got to be pretty dumb, I'm saying none of that has anything to do with intelligence or the lack there-of. Totally unrelated.

If there's no requirement for a high IQ, and there's nothing during a transition that vastly effects IQ, then it must stand that there are very few transgendered people with low IQ's.

Hey, welcome to HungAngels.
Been around here long?

[SuperKirstenTS]

(English isn't my first language, but I did mean 'the value of IQ' as in 'what does it mean anyway?)

Hi there, thanks for your answer. I consider myself as quite intelligent (even though all tests try to prove the opposite) and I'm a TG/TS. I think most TG's are smart, because they (=we) are to intelligent to let something like 'social norms/standards' stand between them and their dreams.

xXx Kirsten

----------------------

Honestly, IQ doesn't matter that much at all. I've taken two official IQ tests and three unofficial ones and my means score is 153. I'm not all that intelligent. I know a lot about a few things which most people don't find interesting. IQ tests quantify problem solving ability and measure the amount of information a person can store and recall quickly. Einstein was considered to have an IQ score of 160. That doesn't mean you're the next Einstein if you score that high.

GO READ A BOOK, MOTHER FUCKERS. lol.[/QUOTE]