Roy Jones Jr vs Bernard Hopkins 2

[Solitary Brother]

Bernard Hopkins is a bitch.
EOM.

[Schimmel]

Man I'll never call Bernard a bitch but for everyone who does I definitely understand where you're coming from. It was a rough fight, I was worried when he started pulling that shit but hey at least he carried through to the end.... and won! Another thing, near the end it started to remind me of Hopkins-Echols, which was also a hilariously rough fight. Hopefully both these guys will hang them up now, I just don't care for them that much anymore.

[addicted]

Bernard Hopkins is a bitch.
EOM.

So what does that makes jones? Its obvious hop was not faking by passing out in the locker room and spending the night in the hospital. Jones has no legacy hop on the other hand is all time great. I do think though hop should not have even taken this fight but it was the biggest payday. Just good to see jerkoff jones get his eyes slashed like razors got to him.

[GullyFoyle]

Did I fall asleep in a hot tub and wake up back in the 80s when boxing was relevant?

[danthepoetman]

Unfortunately, this fight rewrote history, as well as the two Calzaghe fights. It should have happened earlier, of course. A very, very green Hopkins gave troubles to Jones with body shots in their first encounter. Jones should have fought Hopkins earlier to assure its place as one of the greatest middleweights ever. But he was so reluctant to fight anyone of stature, either at middleweight or super-middleweight. He should have fought Mike McCallum at middleweight like James Toney did thrice, not wait until McCallum was a fat, 39 years old light heavyweight who even managed to give him trouble. He should have fought Nigel Benn, Steve Collins, Chris Eubank and Joe Calzaghe… And when the moment of truth came, when finally Jones fought Calzaghe, he was humiliated by the brit’s speed and technique. As to Bernard Hopkins (whom at least assured his legacy at middleweight!), Calzaghe befuddled him so much that all he could do was to hold on and grab for dear life pathetically for the entire fight. In boxing, you have also to seize the moment, not wait. A fighter will be judge eventually as an athlete by what he did in the ring, not by what he said about himself.
And I’m not saying of course that Jones’ legacy is insignificant. On the contrary. But to me, this fight was not just the fight between two older fighters, but one of a few, late, history rewriting fights, which are the reason for me to reopen this old thread…

[broncofan]

Dan,
Roy was clearly washed up when he fought Calzaghe and he didn't fight him because he had already moved up to light heavyweight by the time Calzaghe really started to establish himself at Super Middle.

Roy unified the light heavy title, beat Virgil Hill, Montell Griffin, prime James Toney, Bernard Hopkins, Eric Lucas, Reggie Johnson etc. I did not see Hopkins give Roy a lot of trouble in the first fight though I acknowledge it was competitive, if boring.

Anyhow, I respect your opinion, but disagree. Both great fighters and I never really saw the push for him to fight Calzaghe during his prime from the public or even Calzaghe. Had Dariusz Michalczewski become as great as Calzaghe, I would not excuse Roy's avoidance of him, but the Calzaghe fight just wasn't fated imo.

[danthepoetman]

I don’t want to put a question mark on Jones’ greatness: he’ll shine as a star in the Hall of Fame forever. He’s undoubtedly one of the best if not the best fighter of his generation. Unfortunately, I find that during his career, he tended to affirm more his greatness than to prove it in the ring. For instance, he should have fought Gerald McCleland instead of letting him go abroad to fight Nigel Benn. We all know what happen in that one: Jones should then at least have fought Benn, but he didn’t. Neither did he fought Steve Collins or Chris Eubank. He didn’t want to go fight in the UK and risk falling victim to some bad decision. We all accepted that somewhat justifiable decision, even though the best super middleweights were in the UK at this point; but as the years went by, no one else seemed to show enough brilliance for Jones to fight in order to assure his legacy.
Yes, James Toney was thought of, and rightfully so, as being the best pound for pound fighter in the world when Jones fought him. But oddly enough, something seem to have broken precisely at that point in time. We’ll never know what happened to Toney for this fight; what we do know, is that he spent 7 or 8 hours before the weigh in, in the sauna (and we know he took diuretics) to make weight the day before the fight, and we also know he showed up in the ring at 186 pounds, fat, flaccid and totally uninspired, which for some still unknown reason was the beginning of a downward spiral he would need years to come out of (defeated by Montell Griffin and, amazingly, by Drake Tadzi). And this is the best performance of Jones’ career.
Of course, there is also the brilliant, incredible Virgill Hill victory. But although Hill had been a champion for a long time, he was defeated long before, as a young, brilliant champion, by an old, fatigued Thomas Hearns for the title… There’s also that first fight with Bernard Hopkins indeed; you’re right, Jones didn’t encounter “a lot” of trouble with Hopkins, but not only was it a relatively competitive fight, but Hopkins kept catching Jones with good left hooks to the body that obviously gave Jones some rough moments –and something to think about for the future. Yet, we know how green Hopkins was at that time! Before winning the middleweight title, he drew one year later, in 94, with Secundo Mercado (not a former great!), before finally knocking him out to win the title in 95! And in the years that followed, as he showed everything he was capable of, Jones always made excuses (asked for more than half of the purse, for instance) not to fight him. Once again you can argue it was justified, but the years were going by and Jones wasn’t assuring his legacy properly. (Hopkins, of course, was, defeating every good middleweight for a record 20 title defences).
It is true that Calzaghe only won the WBO Super Middleweight title (from Chris Eubank) in 1997, as Jones was moving up in weight. But in the years succeeding, although there was often talk about it, the fight never materialized, just like the Hopkins fight (or by the way, the –bigger- Toney rematch). Yes, Jones rap sheet is great, but I still have that bad feeling that there is nothing really glorious in there, not one great, great accomplishment that could stay above any debate –not even one. And I can’t either get rid of the feeling that Jones was reluctant when it was time to prove himself, and only woke up too late, and realized himself that he didn’t. And because of that realization, he suffered these defeats that seem to indicate to me, that indeed, if he had only pursued the very best in every division he was in, he would not have come out that great.
(Reggie Johnson fight was a good victory, as was the Johnny Ruiz’ –although Jones ran a marathon this time, unlike nemesis James Toney fighting heavies…)

[broncofan]

Great post. I didn't know you followed so closely. I did as well. The only thing I disagree with is the Toney analysis. I remember that he had trouble making 168 and that he was nearly twenty pounds heavier by fight time as you say. However, there is no way to validate the claim that it adversely affected him. I am not convinced it did just because I've heard the claim so much.

Afterall, how many times have we heard fighters complain that their opponent came to the ring 10 or 15 pounds heavier than they were because they were able to cut weight and then put the pounds back on. Joey Gamache as we remember sued the New York State Athletic Commission based on Gatti's size. Admittedly this was based on whether Gatti ever made weight but when Gatti was 20 pounds heavier on the night of the fight this was a perceived advantage. And when he caused Joey Gamache severe brain damage, it was also the horrendous size difference that many blamed.

Both James Toney and Roy Jones knew they were meeting in a p4p matchup and that their careers might be measured by this performance. Further, Roy was coming up in weight if I remember and Toney had already established dominance at 168 and was a favorite on fight night. Who knew that James Toney would lose every round? They could have fought again, but James Toney's comeback did not look so great until he beat Vassiliy Jirov in 2003. I know he looked pretty good against some other cruisers before that but I think if Jones beat Toney again at cruiser before Toney beat Jirov people would have said he beat a washed up Toney.

But as per your other points, you made some good points. Jones missed a lot of opportunities. Collins, Michalczewski, Calzaghe. The Virgil Hill fight was good as you say, but Virgil Hill for all his light heavy accomplishments (consecutive defenses if I remember) had a great jab and not such a strong right hand or follow up game.

[broncofan]

And I never saw either of James Toney's fights against Montell Griffin. I saw him again as a cruiserweight fighting on ESPN a couple times and then the impressive performance against Jirov. As you say he really did disappear for a long time after the Jones fight. It could be that the loss demoralized him. Or it could be that he had started to develop a bit of an eating disorder and was not the same guy he was as a super middle. I guess we'll never know.

Jones' 60-40 demands on Hopkins were unreasonable as you say. I am obviously a fan, but this must have been an excuse to avoid what he thought would be a tough fight.

[danthepoetman]

Yes, Toney started having problems a little bit before the Jones fight. (He had tons of trouble with Prince Charles Williams before knocking him out at the last minute of the 12th round, in his last fight before the Jones fight.) Weight problems indeed, but also emotional problems if not mental… Remember that scene with his agent, Jackie Kallen, when he was arrested for threatening to kill her after the Jones fight, because he felt that she was the one to have pushed him in that fight, when he felt he couldn’t make the weight anymore? Yes, we can all perceive that as an excuse, and no athlete should do that. Yet, as Toney fought his demons, he became indeed a great cruiserweight, and showed absolutely no reluctance to fight the best heavyweights out there (as opposed to Jones)! Think about his rap sheet, Broncofan: after beating Jirov, he knocked Evander Holyfield out in 9; decisioned Johnny Ruiz in 12 (overturned because of a substance test); decisioned up and comer Dominic Guinn in 12; had a draw and a no contest with Hasim Rahman; lost two 12 rounds decisions to Sam Peter (no 2 contender); and split decisioned Fres Oquendo! I can’t think of any former middleweight in history doing that good with heavies (Mickey Walker comes to mind, with only a draw against Jack Sharkey and a decision loss to Schmeling; or very old timer Bob Fitszimon)…