When soldiers are expendable...

[paulgutierrez]

The only thing driving this idea that this particular incident was an act of terrorism is the fact that he's Muslim. Hasan's an American, born & raised. What "anti-American"? He was a commissioned officer in the all volunteer US army. He wasn't a spy or a mole or a sleeper. Islam is the world's largest religion. All practicing Muslims say Allah akbar (God is great) at least 5 times a day. So if the Columbine kids had yelled "oh Jesus!" before they opened fire, would anyone be blaming Christianity?

You obviously haven't read much about this then. He made anti-american comments in uniform, praised suicide bombers, received many complaints, and constantly got into arguments with his fellow servicemen and women over just that.

Also, no one said he was a spy, mole, or sleeper. you dont have to be a spy, mole, or sleeper to be a terrorist. Let me reference a lone terrorist for you. Timothy mcveigh - Oklahoma bomber. Acted alone without guidance from any sort of higher up. I could have also just as easily listed dozens of lone muslim terrorists (ie people who board buses with explosives strapped to themselves), but I thought bringing up a non muslim white man would be the only way you'd pick up on the point.

Furthermore, Mike didnt even say he was a terrorist. But is he a traitor? Yes. Did he go about this the way terrorists do? Yes. You were the first one in this thread to even bring up terrorism. That fact alone already shows your knee jerk bias.

The only thing driving your downplaying is the fact that hes a muslim. You hear this buzzword and automatically start drinking the koolaid. No surprise by a guy named hippifreak.

So now the type of gun has something to do with motivation? Uh huh, sure... Just about any gun can shoot through kevlar if you have the right bullits. Why would anybody have been wearing a vest on a domestic US military installation anyway? Now you're just grasping at straws.

Someone obviously doesnt know shit about the FN Five-Seven, named aptly for its unique cartridge and can penetrate kevlar at up to 300 meters. A couple years ago some lady was on the news calling for it to be banned because of what it could do in the hands of a terrorist.

Theres too much to go on for me to be grasping at straws. Yet, how are your arguments are holding up? You use semantics and typical hippie obfuscation to twist the blatant facts.

Whether the targets were military personnel or not has nothing to do with whether it's terrorism. They might as well have been civilians. They were unarmed sitting ducks, crowded together in a big room. Terrorism requires conspiracy & a political end. Saying the Qur'an told him to do it is like saying the voices in his head told him to do it. That pretty much rules out terrorism in favor of just plain old crazy.

Really? turning against America over the idea of fighting against people he considers his own kind is a new concept to you? You would reduce that to just plain insanity? Great reasoning bro.

[hippifried]

He made anti-american comments in uniform, praised suicide bombers...

Really? You're repeating yourself now, so how about a quote. What did he actually say? I've seen this same exact parrot comment all over the internet & on TV. I've even been linked to sources for the same word for word parroting, but they don't actually quote Hasan either. As dogmatic as this is becomming, one would think that someone must have first hand knowlege. Where's the quote? Sorry Polly, but my Pyrronist thought processes won't allow me to be that gullible.

McVey was NOT a lone terrorist. There were 3 convictions in that case. McVey is dead. Nichols will die in prison. Fortier fell on his sword (metaphorically) & protected the others that helped along the way. He's out now, & still not talking. They were all tied in with the neo-nazi movement in America, where they're considered heros. That was a conspiracy with a political end. Terrorism.

You can't point to a single suicide bomber who actually built the bomb. The person who's willing to die to deliver it is just that, a delivery system. Notice that you haven't seen much of that lately. The organized players have rockets now. Oops! Looks like another escalation of all that stupid over there in stupid central, AKA Palisraelistine. A 5000 year old intrafamily feud over a fucking bowl of soup & a fight over who mom liked best. Fuck those assholes. Kick them all out. If the stupid brats can't play nice, take away the toy.

Someone obviously doesnt know shit about the FN Five-Seven, named aptly for its unique cartridge and can penetrate kevlar at up to 300 meters. A couple years ago some lady was on the news calling for it to be banned because of what it could do in the hands of a terrorist.

Theres too much to go on for me to be grasping at straws. Yet, how are your arguments are holding up? You use semantics and typical hippie obfuscation to twist the blatant facts.

Oh my arguments are holding up just fine. Thanks for askin'. Of course I don't know if I can match some lady on the news that wants the gun banned, but here goes. It's a 5.7mm bore with the same load that you'd use to push a 9 or 10mm or more. Gives more velocity & a flatter trajectory. It's the fully jacketed slug that penetrates kevlar or anything else. The latest variant is designed to sell to law enforcement in the US, & it's widely used. Cops like it. It's available at any decent gun shop, especially in Texas. Apparently the lady on the news didn't get her way.I still don't know how tis relates to whether this was terrorism or postalism, but they're your straws.

Really? turning against America over the idea of fighting against people he considers his own kind is a new concept to you? You would reduce that to just plain insanity? Great reasoning bro.

There's a difference between objecting to your job & shooting up the workplace. He was/is a shrink. I've never met one of those who wasn't somewhat off. With his training, I don't imagine anybody's ever going to get the real story out of him.

Back to reality: Nobody who counts has accused Major Hasan of terrorism. Not the feds. Not the Army. Not the State of Texas, Bell County, or the city of Killeen. The accusation of "terrorism" is strictly on the internet, blogs & forums like this, & of course media pork from the opinion writers & talkers. So far, it's just a murder spree, & I doubt the charges will be altered to appease the paranoids & shriekers in the country.

[chefmike]

Furthermore, Mike didnt even say he was a terrorist. But is he a traitor? Yes. Did he go about this the way terrorists do? Yes. You were the first one in this thread to even bring up terrorism. That fact alone already shows your knee jerk bias.

I don't recall mentioning terrorism, either....besides the guy being a traitor(and a coward), I guess that I would just call him another crazed religious fanatic...like the lunatics who bomb abortion clinics...are these terrorist acts?....maybe it's just a matter of semantics...

[hippifried]

I brought up the word "terrorism", Mike. (bet you went back & checked, huh) You used the phrase "fanatical Muslim", & insinuated causality for the violent act. In today's rhetoric, that's become synonymous. We've had this overt "war on terror" raging for the last 8 years, & covertly for a lot longer than that. Most Muslims, & far too many who support the venture, see it as a war on Islam in general, the religious belief of 20% of the global population. Are they wrong? I certainly hope so, but I have serious doubts.

You also mentioned "treason", & Paul ran with it in his accusations of "anti-American" rhetoric. My position in this thread has consistently been that the religious belief is incidental, & there's nothing anti-American about questioning the policies of our government or the motives of those in power. Hell, a disgruntled employee shooting up the workplace might as well be "Mom & apple pie". Where else on earth is this commonplace? We just shrug it off nowadays, or even laugh it off. We even gave the phenomenon a humorous nickname, "going postal". The guy in Fla got kicked to the back page because there was no "media pork" angle to the story. Dollars to donuts says that most Americans never heard about it or have already forgotten. Just another guy "going postal". The Ft Hood story has legs because of where the workplace was, & that oh so titilating Muslim angle that the talking heads can fill airtime with.. But the reality is that it was "just another guy going postal".

[hippifried]

By the way: The clinic bombings fit the narrow definition of terrorist acts. That clown who did a lot of them, & set the bomb in the Atlanta Olympic Park, is a terrorist, with an organized political agenda behind his actions. The people who put him up to it, & knowingly aided in his actions & escapes both here & abroad, are also part of the terrorist plot by definition.

On the other hand: The asshole who mailed the anthrax letters also had some convoluted religious/political agenda to promote the war on Islam. But he worked alone, & you can't call it terrorism because he did it for the money. His name is on patents for anthrax vaccines. CHA-$-CHING!!!

I think we agree on the utter stupidity of religious fanaticism, but I lump it in with all ideological fanaticism, including jingoism. But all "ism"s are just ideas, regardless of knowlege base, merit, or their adherents. You can't fight or promote ideas with physical force. That's why terrorism has a nearly 100% failure rate. You can only fight ideas with other ideas. The winning idea, when put into practice, never works out the way it was envisioned. I guess one could point out the 100% failure rate there too. Oh well, what the hell... Where's my gun?

[chefmike]

I brought up the word "terrorism", Mike. (bet you went back & checked, huh)

Nope, because you'd be hard pressed to even find an example of me ever using that word here...and the same goes for the ridiculous bushinc mantra of "war on terror"....

[chefmike]

And I mentioned treason because ol' Hadjii Hasan was in the military...that's what we called it when I was in...or maybe I was just brainwashed....must've been all that dope-smoking us swabbies did....that is when we weren't waving the flag and talking about killing commies and all....

[InHouston]

Uhhh ... when you volunteer for the military and you are suited up with a gun in your hand, and trained to kill others in a far off land ...

YOU ARE EXPENDABLE.

[El Nino]

And may I add, pawns on a grand chessboard being manipulated and moved around by the will of the masters of war.

[hippifried]

It's not treason either, Mike. Treason is clearly defined as aid to the enemy. That's not what happened here. This was murder. It's a violation of the UCMJ, but that doesn't make it treason. Military personnel kill each other periodically, & there's rules in the code to deal with it. Even when some pissed off grunt tosses a frag into an officers tent, in the middle of the war zone, it's not treason. It's murder. The numbers don't change that.

Too many people have tried to read too much into this that just isn't there. Personally, I'm hard pressed to find a lot of difference between this guy & the Columbine kids. I think it was a failed attempt at suicide by cop. He didn't protect himself with a vest or anything. He got shot up. I doubt that he figured on surviving the incident. Oops!