OK to be with a TS because they say they are really female

[phobun]

Bye.
Your not worth my time Miss Nicole. This bores me and i'm sure you have better things to do. So truce on my side , have fun Nicole.

Good for you Billy. You should feel good if you don't do it for Nicole.
But I wonder if Nicole got turned on when Nicole showed you some that sadism?

[Teydyn]

because in all other respects, they are male.
Let's count the ways:

A penis which is not abhored, but actually used as a source of livelihood? CHECK

and uses said penis to bring home the bacon, it does not mean that a regular guy is not a man because he is not a prostitute.

Thats exactly what you you did.

[thx1138]

[trish]

Most, but not all, transgender women on this board are genetically male, and their bodies before transition expressed most of the secondary sexual characteristics that statistically correlate to being an XY-male. Most transgender women on this board, due to their own efforts, now defy those correlations. What we’ve learned in the past several decades is that phenotype is not determined by genotype and that phenotype is mutable (by extra-developmental means). We have undergone transition because of an intolerable tension between our gender identity and our phenotypic expression. A woman may be genetically XY, her phenotype can be what she pleases it to be and her gender is female. What’s so hard about that?

What hangs some folks up is the fact that gender is a social construction, while genetic constitution is not. Gender is not our only example of a social construction. A paradigm example is the notion of property. Property, in the sense of ownership, is not a scientific concept. There is not physical or chemical bond between an object and its owner. The two of them do not exchange special ownership gluons. There is no scientific test that one can perform to decide ownership. That because ownership and property are social constructions. You own the things you have only because everyone recognizes you own them. Without that recognition ownerships evaporates and no amount of metaphysics will restore it. Consequently it would be fallacy to say, “I’m the first to recognize you own your home, but it’s merely a social courtesy and in all other aspects you don’t own it.” Wrong, because the deed is a certificate of recognition of ownership and that recognition is all that ownership is. Wrong, because social constructions are not mere courtesies. They are stable social contracts rooted in custom and human psychology; some people even mistake them for metaphysical absolutes. Yet, it seems to me, that’s exactly the fallacy engendered by Phobun’s statement:

"I'll be the first to say that I think TS women are women. But it is a social courtesy … to address certain transgenders as female, because in all other respects, they are male."

The gender of a woman is female in all aspects, whether she takes public transportation to work or drives, because her mode of transportation is not a relevant aspect to the social construct known as gender. The gender of a woman is female in all aspects, whether she is genetically male or genetically female, because genetic sex is not a relevant factor.

[SarahG]

For human beings, there is only really one primary sexual characteristic, and for better or worse, thats the external genitalia. You can talk about genetics and xx and xy and xyy and all the chromosonal variations, but ultimately, how those genes are expressed physically is what counts. Males have penises, female have vaginas

I have to respectfully disagree with that, on a few separate points- the first being the existance of people with truly ambiguous genitalia, and the second being the people without any genitalia or reproductive organs at all.

If we define sex based on genitalia, and then only have two sex categories to choose from, then as a classification scheme we can't coupe with oddball situations.

Oddball cases are what would "prove the rule's validity," and in this case it shows the rule isn't sufficient to work under all possible scenarios.

Further, there is another organ in the body that heavily depends on sex, and one that cannot be changed. That's the brain. Brains are very different based on sex. They're structurally different, they operate differently- you can put a male and a female under brainscans and have them perform a common task and find the brain does the task differently depending on brain-sex. IF, for arguments shake, the "but my brain is female" statements MtF trans people are known for is true (this point could be scientifically vetted out at some point in the future), then that means they have brains whose sex is female, which in my eyes is as important if not more important than genitalia.

Someone's chromosomes, genitalia, secondary sex characteristics, fertility, endocrine system, and gender/social roles could all be completely uniformly female. If their brain-sex is male, it won't matter- they won't act as a female (and by that I mean in tangible "how the brain does things" way and not gender role fabrications from socialization). You'd have essentially a guy who looks like a girl, has a girl's hardware, and lives as a girl for all practical purposes- but is far from being a girl because of all the ways the brain-sex comes into play.

Same with homo vs heterosexuaL. homo=same. hetero=different. In the strict, literal sense of the terms, if you have a penis and your partner has one as well, that is a homosexual act.

Which would make a sexual encounter with someone who lacks genitalia... or has naturally ambiguous genitalia what exactly?

[BlackAdder]

OP is fucking lame. Go to a psychologist if you want therapy.

[BellaBellucci]

I want to add something to what Felecia said above.

But homosexual isn't the same as gay, just like hetero isn't the same as straight. Gay and Straight are social and cultural constructs, not easy absolutes.

Ok. Here comes fluid thought, for whatever it's worth. Sue me if my spelling or grammar is off. I'm going to bed soon...

One of the things that divides the members of this forum more than any other is basic honesty. Transsexuals are all OUT. We have no closet where we hide a dirty secret from ourselves. Covering one's genitalia in public is an almost universally conventional practice. So on the social level, gender is an understatement. No one is expected to make an issue out of what's in their underwear at the DMV or in the grocery store. We all simply go forward and function on the most basic human level. But even those of us who are stealth and post-op, at least at some point, looked themselves in the eye and acknowledged that the risks we might be taking to do these very basic all-too-human things, constantly surrounded by potentially close-minded and volatile "normal" people, were far outweighed by the need to feel comfortable in our own skin. That single act of self-actualization represents a thought crime to most people. It scares them. Transsexuals are a taboo, first and foremost, because thinking for yourself is a taboo. We know this all-too-well and we wouldn't have it any other way. And we're even proud of it; perhaps not always openly and in public, but we acknowledge it FOR OURSELVES.

Yet the people who are attracted to us, more times than not, remain in the closet. And these sad individuals often wrestle with the living paradox that is US. And, since the libido essentially has no conscience, they often feel controlled and almost forced into embracing, not only their own sexual lusts, but a bona fide taboo. We make you feel "gay". We make you seem "gay". We challenge your parents, your families, your friends, and your concept of God. And some of you can't carry that load. Some of you can, of course. But perhaps most disturbing of all to those of you who can't is that WE DON'T CARE. We know damn well that there are far more of you who can't have us, for a number of reasons, than there are those who can have us. This phenomenon exists PLENTY with men and genetic women. But with TS women, it's infinitely multiplied. So often, the bottom line is, it kinda sucks to be you. But we're US, gentlemen, through sheer determination and inner-strength. If that's not something to marvel at and respect, nothing is. And you know it. And it intimidates the shit out of most of you. Ironically though, most us don't want to scare you. We simply want to be cherished and loved. But that's a cross that we bear.

Anyway, I think I've had it with this place for a long while.

Peace.

This is awesome. Simply. Awesome.

~BB~

[Felicia Katt]

Sarah, its artificially a binary system only, and an imprecise one at best, based on superficial, observable criteria, like any other sort of general classification scheme. If you go into genetics or endocrines or neural or reproductive or skeletal structures, or any number of other less readily apparent markers, it falls apart. But as imperfect as it may be, its the one we have to work within, absent some radical social change. Other cultures, past and present, were more enlightened then we are, with the berdache and the hejra and such, but in the west, its presently 2 genders and only 2 to tango.

With respect to the intersexed, or those sexually neutered, as with transgenders, I would personally have no problem opening the system to additional categories, but the rest of our society is not yet so willing. As you know, for those born with ambiguous genitals, tough, unfair medical choices are usually made, to force the oval peg into one round hole or the other. I'm not aware of too many people with no genitals at all, except through trauma, and then it would be what they were before or how they choose to self express after. Either way, it remains an either or dynamic, no matter how flawed or unfair.

I'm not advocating for this, only for how to best work within it. I think we need less labels, not more. Ideally, it would be great if the only label were human, and the only judgment on relationships were on how well they worked for the people in them. But until we reach that Utopian ideal, I stand by what I said about love and lust and letting those things chart your sexual course, not some rigid social way-points that often only lead to unhappiness.

FK

[fred41]

Ok. Here comes fluid thought, for whatever it's worth. Sue me if my spelling or grammar is off. I'm going to bed soon...

One of the things that divides the members of this forum more than any other is basic honesty. Transsexuals are all OUT. We have no closet where we hide a dirty secret from ourselves. Covering one's genitalia in public is an almost universally conventional practice. So on the social level, gender is an understatement. No one is expected to make an issue out of what's in their underwear at the DMV or in the grocery store. We all simply go forward and function on the most basic human level. But even those of us who are stealth and post-op, at least at some point, looked themselves in the eye and acknowledged that the risks we might be taking to do these very basic all-too-human things, constantly surrounded by potentially close-minded and volatile "normal" people, were far outweighed by the need to feel comfortable in our own skin. That single act of self-actualization represents a thought crime to most people. It scares them. Transsexuals are a taboo, first and foremost, because thinking for yourself is a taboo. We know this all-too-well and we wouldn't have it any other way. And we're even proud of it; perhaps not always openly and in public, but we acknowledge it FOR OURSELVES.

Yet the people who are attracted to us, more times than not, remain in the closet. And these sad individuals often wrestle with the living paradox that is US. And, since the libido essentially has no conscience, they often feel controlled and almost forced into embracing, not only their own sexual lusts, but a bona fide taboo. We make you feel "gay". We make you seem "gay". We challenge your parents, your families, your friends, and your concept of God. And some of you can't carry that load. Some of you can, of course. But perhaps most disturbing of all to those of you who can't is that WE DON'T CARE. We know damn well that there are far more of you who can't have us, for a number of reasons, than there are those who can have us. This phenomenon exists PLENTY with men and genetic women. But with TS women, it's infinitely multiplied. So often, the bottom line is, it kinda sucks to be you. But we're US, gentlemen, through sheer determination and inner-strength. If that's not something to marvel at and respect, nothing is. And you know it. And it intimidates the shit out of most of you. Ironically though, most us don't want to scare you. We simply want to be cherished and loved. But that's a cross that we bear.

Anyway, I think I've had it with this place for a long while.

Peace.

Seems like a pretty accurate take..judging by a lot of the threads on this site.

[archineer]

Isn't this thread dead yet?