Tranny hard facts!

[SarahG]

The problem, in this case, is that in certain trans spaces (be it online support forums or physical support groups), a big chunk (not all) of the vocal late transitioners try to exert their experiences as if its "their way or the highway" when it comes to transitioning; where they'll berate anyone who goes on HRT DIY, and demand that anyone younger then ~35 wait at least that long to transition because "that's how they did it," and godforbid they don't get FFS (because they happened to be lucky enough to start before T damage would necessitate it to pass).

I remember when I first started and I did research on laser versus electro. I immediately thought, 'why would anyone torture themselves by using electrocution one hair at a time?' The late transitioners had an answer for me: scarring.

Fast forward 4 years. I've had nothing but laser and I have no scarring. It actually occurred to me about 2 years ago that this would be the case and I realized that what these people tried to do was dupe me. They were jealous that our generation has an easier, more effective way to remove unwanted hair (and without the need for pattern growth), so they just lied about it. I can't even begin to tell you how many false lectures I received on the dangers of laser treatments, but now people use them for everything.

I co-sign every word you said 100%. They (late transitioners) told me it was their way or the highway... so I started driving!

~BB~

Meanwhile the real important part would have been; because not everyone can use laser. It depends on your skin type & hair color & the machine being used. For some people there is no choice.

But I digress, this is only some of the people who are out there on sites and in groups that allow diverse membership. Saying they're all like that would be as erroneous as saying universally that "everyone who starts hrt at 18 won't need FFS to pass"

[yodajazz]

There is a philosphy which says that all human beings can learn from one another. If not from their similarities, then from our differences.

However that requires people being able to rationally think, talk AND listen to each other, and lets face it- although technically possible, sometimes the odds of it happening are minuscule.

The problem, in this case, is that in certain trans spaces (be it online support forums or physical support groups), a big chunk (not all) of the vocal late transitioners try to exert their experiences as if its "their way or the highway" when it comes to transitioning; where they'll berate anyone who goes on HRT DIY, and demand that anyone younger then ~35 wait at least that long to transition because "that's how they did it," and godforbid they don't get FFS (because they happened to be lucky enough to start before T damage would necessitate it to pass).

Telling a trans person who is 25 that they should wait 10 years to go on HRT isn't going to go over well, and its going to go over worse if its delivered as an ultimatum. When the younger transitioner responds to the orders (its not advice if the person speaking to you demands you do everything as they say) to say something along the lines of "well, thats nice it worked for you well that way and all but it really doesn't help my situation, I am not going to wait 10 years to go on HRT, even if it means going DIY" what follows is an immediate argument/pissing match/flame war of two people yelling at each other (sometimes with likeminded people taking one of the two sides to join in on the screaming) and the conversation effectively ends.

I've seen this exact scenario play out time and time again on trans support forums/groups, where some (again, not all) outspoken late transitioners insist things have to be done a certain way because that's how they did it, and belittle/flame anyone who dares to disagree with that exact process. HRT isn't the only point of disagreement, its just the example I'm using to talk about this (I can think of several other scenarios that are otherwise identical to the above).

surely a fifty year old transisioner can teach you something about life.

Sure, I've never said otherwise. But, to use another proverb- you can't shake hands with a clinched fist. People have to be willing to listen and think even when it flies in the face of their own experiences.

SarahG, it seems like you resent older people for bothering to survive.

Why is it that there are some people who will get their panties in a knot whenever anyone says anything even remotely critical of some of the late transitioners?

I mean seriously, it seems like every time anyone points out anything that could be construed as critical of a late transitioner, there is someone somewhere who immediately responds with some off topic rant about how "late transitioners should be able to transition too!" while knowing damn well that no one in the thread has suggested otherwise.

I would certainly agree that an older person shouldn’t say that things have to be done their way only. A wise person would say, “This is what I learned from my experience”. And they understand that the other person is free to choose their own path.

I respect you as an intelligent person, but I have heard you speak negatively abut older transistioners numerous times, saying ones “suddenly transistion at age 50” while going away for the weekend. The way I see it, if you deny someone the right to transition, or alternate gender expression, then you are giving someone else to right to deny you the same thing. That is why free speech advocates will defend the rights of someone they disagree with.

I believe a community which is inclusive gains greater power through greater numbers. It has been mentioned earlier in this thread that some trans people, define themselves as being better than others. I believe that this holds the community as a whole back. If an older transistioner implies that they are ‘better’, the answer is not, “no younger ones are better”. The answer is that everyone’s experience is valid because we are all on the same path. The ones that arrive late are still on the same road, ready to fight in the same battle.

I recently remembered hearing that two t-girls I had met who were roommates, started arguing over who was better than the other. One murdered the other. So in the end did it really make any difference who was better? They were both trans women trying to survive in a sometimes hostile world. But what destroyed both, was their lack of respect for other trans women.

[SarahG]

I respect you as an intelligent person, but I have heard you speak negatively abut older transistioners numerous times, saying ones “suddenly transistion at age 50” while going away for the weekend.

When I say those things I am talking about the stereotype, not the people themselves.

Take the recent thread (which I believe is what prompted your post) about that boxer in the UK, my beef (which I plainly said at least a few times in that thread) was with the newspaper painting it up to be a simple weekend trip to "get a sex change" as if that's what the whole process is.

I am going to find fault with anyone, trans or not, who paints transitioning as being simply a "sex change surgery" or a weekend clothes spending spree.

...if you deny someone the right to transition, or alternate gender expression,...

And yet again, someone gets on this soapbox when NO ONE HAS DECLARED OTHERWISE.

Have you seen anyone in this thread, or the other one, say "no one should transition after #[assigned age]?" Am I just going blind here and haven't seen it?

In fact I specifically said in THIS thread that I am uncomfortable with the primary versus secondary labels because they offer the medical community no treatment advantage while putting those who would be defined as secondary (aka late transitioners) at risk of greater gatekeeping problems.

I would understand you bringing this up if I were saying "you know, at what point should you just say 'you're too old to transition'" but I never, ever, said that and have even made remarks explaining why someone would want to transition, even if it was at that age.

At what point would these "late transitioners should be able to transition too!" statements being injected into these threads cease to be arguments to become a tool of dramatic effect, or intellectual dishonesty? It would be like going into every race-flame-war thread in HA and lecturing people that "black trans people should be able to transition to." ....okkkay, what's that have to do with the price of crude oil on mars? Its being brought up now why? Has anyone said otherwise?

[Nicole Dupre]

I respect you as an intelligent person, but I have heard you speak negatively abut older transistioners numerous times, saying ones “suddenly transistion at age 50” while going away for the weekend.

When I say those things I am talking about the stereotype, not the people themselves.

Take the recent thread (which I believe is what prompted your post) about that boxer in the UK, my beef (which I plainly said at least a few times in that thread) was with the newspaper painting it up to be a simple weekend trip to "get a sex change" as if that's what the whole process is.

I am going to find fault with anyone, trans or not, who paints transitioning as being simply a "sex change surgery" or a weekend clothes spending spree.

...if you deny someone the right to transition, or alternate gender expression,...

And yet again, someone gets on this soapbox when NO ONE HAS DECLARED OTHERWISE.

Have you seen anyone in this thread, or the other one, say "no one should transition after #[assigned age]?" Am I just going blind here and haven't seen it?

In fact I specifically said in THIS thread that I am uncomfortable with the primary versus secondary labels because they offer the medical community no treatment advantage while putting those who would be defined as secondary (aka late transitioners) at risk of greater gatekeeping problems.

I would understand you bringing this up if I were saying "you know, at what point should you just say 'you're too old to transition'" but I never, ever, said that and have even made remarks explaining why someone would want to transition, even if it was at that age.

At what point would these "late transitioners should be able to transition too!" statements being injected into these threads cease to be arguments to become a tool of dramatic effect, or intellectual dishonesty? It would be like going into every race-flame-war thread in HA and lecturing people that "black trans people should be able to transition to." ....okkkay, what's that have to do with the price of crude oil on mars? Its being brought up now why? Has anyone said otherwise?

I find that many of his posts lack substance, and that he often misinterprets peoples' intentions. He does lots of moralizing about things that no one's even discussing. He's not a bad guy, but I don't think he has a lot to share here. I think he just likes to play Yoda. lol

[yodajazz]

I respect you as an intelligent person, but I have heard you speak negatively abut older transistioners numerous times, saying ones “suddenly transistion at age 50” while going away for the weekend.

When I say those things I am talking about the stereotype, not the people themselves.

Take the recent thread (which I believe is what prompted your post) about that boxer in the UK, my beef (which I plainly said at least a few times in that thread) was with the newspaper painting it up to be a simple weekend trip to "get a sex change" as if that's what the whole process is.

I am going to find fault with anyone, trans or not, who paints transitioning as being simply a "sex change surgery" or a weekend clothes spending spree.

...if you deny someone the right to transition, or alternate gender expression,...

And yet again, someone gets on this soapbox when NO ONE HAS DECLARED OTHERWISE.

Have you seen anyone in this thread, or the other one, say "no one should transition after #[assigned age]?" Am I just going blind here and haven't seen it?

In fact I specifically said in THIS thread that I am uncomfortable with the primary versus secondary labels because they offer the medical community no treatment advantage while putting those who would be defined as secondary (aka late transitioners) at risk of greater gatekeeping problems.

I would understand you bringing this up if I were saying "you know, at what point should you just say 'you're too old to transition'" but I never, ever, said that and have even made remarks explaining why someone would want to transition, even if it was at that age.

At what point would these "late transitioners should be able to transition too!" statements being injected into these threads cease to be arguments to become a tool of dramatic effect, or intellectual dishonesty? It would be like going into every race-flame-war thread in HA and lecturing people that "black trans people should be able to transition to." ....okkkay, what's that have to do with the price of crude oil on mars? Its being brought up now why? Has anyone said otherwise?

Ok I understand you daying that you are using the stereotype. The question is whether or not you believe in it yourself. It seems that you are saying that you do not believe in it. But I do recall you using that in other posts. So I now assume that whe you said it in the past, you meant it in the sense, that it is what a person who is ignorant of of trans issues might think.

I do recall a previous discussion about whether cross dressers, were a benefit or hurt trans causes. If I remember correctly, I think that you took the position that their public image hurt trans acceptance. This then calls into question what your general attitude towards crossdresser is. That is where the 'gender expression' part comes from. I do understand that every human group has people in it who may be bad for the overall image. This is especially true in racial relations.

If I do misunderstand your intentions at times, it's because I do respect you enough to try and understand your writings, and I make it a point to read your posts. I want to keep you honest. You say many things that I completely agree with, even in this thread. If I am wrong, it is still done out of love, with the thought of the greater community in mind. I did hesitate to post on this thread. But I saw what appeared to be an attack on older transistioners. But now, it has been said that this was in regard to some specific people.

[yodajazz]

I respect you as an intelligent person, but I have heard you speak negatively abut older transistioners numerous times, saying ones “suddenly transistion at age 50” while going away for the weekend.

When I say those things I am talking about the stereotype, not the people themselves.

Take the recent thread (which I believe is what prompted your post) about that boxer in the UK, my beef (which I plainly said at least a few times in that thread) was with the newspaper painting it up to be a simple weekend trip to "get a sex change" as if that's what the whole process is.

I am going to find fault with anyone, trans or not, who paints transitioning as being simply a "sex change surgery" or a weekend clothes spending spree.

...if you deny someone the right to transition, or alternate gender expression,...

And yet again, someone gets on this soapbox when NO ONE HAS DECLARED OTHERWISE.

Have you seen anyone in this thread, or the other one, say "no one should transition after #[assigned age]?" Am I just going blind here and haven't seen it?

In fact I specifically said in THIS thread that I am uncomfortable with the primary versus secondary labels because they offer the medical community no treatment advantage while putting those who would be defined as secondary (aka late transitioners) at risk of greater gatekeeping problems.

I would understand you bringing this up if I were saying "you know, at what point should you just say 'you're too old to transition'" but I never, ever, said that and have even made remarks explaining why someone would want to transition, even if it was at that age.

At what point would these "late transitioners should be able to transition too!" statements being injected into these threads cease to be arguments to become a tool of dramatic effect, or intellectual dishonesty? It would be like going into every race-flame-war thread in HA and lecturing people that "black trans people should be able to transition to." ....okkkay, what's that have to do with the price of crude oil on mars? Its being brought up now why? Has anyone said otherwise?

I find that many of his posts lack substance, and that he often misinterprets peoples' intentions. He does lots of moralizing about things that no one's even discussing. He's not a bad guy, but I don't think he has a lot to share here. I think he just likes to play Yoda. lol

Yeah, I do moralize and get up in my soapbox. That's just me. But I do it in general because so many people take the low road. Other people say "well, its okay to be disrespectful, it's just the internet." But I was trained to look at a bigger picture. Disrespect of classes of people (tranny chasers, etc) is a sign community division. And many people don't even think there is a community. But by definition 'community', means greater power.

[Beagle]

i think some would be well served to listen what trannygirl15 has to say on this subject...

[Nicole Dupre]

I think this is a stupid thread and it should be taken down. There are no hard facts here.

If we're going to discuss this topic, let's get trannys here who were actually diagnosed as primary according to the HBS, outdated and skewed as that research is.

Then we can have a discussion involving and concerning who here has a verifiable history indicating that they are "primary". Otherwise, this is a THREAD FAIL, and is a ploy to ostracize other trannys on HA.

Again, I was diagnosed as "primary", got the "intersexed" diagnosis, and it never improved my quality of life.

[Silcc69]

What happened with the other thread with Hara and Nicole goin at it?

[Nicole Dupre]

I'm not "going at it with her" at all. I don't want to talk to her AT ALL, for the millionth time.

But this thread is just blatantly divisive, and should come down. I don't care who wrote it.