Tranny hard facts!

[Popeye99]

I may be resurrecting a dead thread, but wanted to offer my two cents in the discussion about primary vs. secondary. I'm in my 50's. That means I was a teenager in the late 1960's and early 1970's. I can remember thinking that I was very different from the other boys, but any information about transsexuals was scarce and hard to find. Every so often I might see something about Christine Jorgensen or Renee Richards, but never much more than a short account, saying that she'd changed her sex. So I knew that it was possible to "change sex" but had little other information available to me. I remember visiting the library at a medical school near my hometown, and finding a journal article with drawings of what I believe was Dr. Biber's method. I studied the Physician's Desk Reference to try to figure out what drugs to take to feminize myself. I remember cutting into my scrotum, wondering if I could remove my testicles.

I did all of these things and more before I was age 18, and did so while thinking that I was all alone in dealing with my "gender" issue of feeling like I was female. Words like transition, HRT, testosterone blocking, and such were not in use. The times until the advent of the internet in the late 1990's were the "dark ages" for information about transsexualism and transitioning.

Despite the difficulty in trying to get information, I managed to get my hands on estrogen at several different times. First, in my early 20's, while still in college, I was able to take Premarin for about a year. I had to stop 'cause I couldn't get the prescription refilled after a year and couldn't find the 1st doctor or someone else for a new prescription. Still felt like I was all alone in doing this, so tried marriage and fatherhood. The marriage was a disaster, but the fatherhood part was great and a highlight of my life. After divorce, in my 30's, I found another doctor who prescribed Premarin and spiro. I lived through about 130 hours of electrolysis on my face. I took the Premarin and spiro until I ran out of renewals on the prescriptions and couldn't get more. I could go on and on.

But the point is that it wasn't until the last decade, or for me, my 40's and early 50's, that we've enjoyed the explosion of information about transsexuality that the internet brings. I am resigned to the notion of living out my life as a male, single and impotent, primarily so as to not lose contact with my kids or future grandchildren. But I often wonder whether, if all this information and the realization that many others were confronting and dealing with these same questions was available, back when I was 18 or 20, what path would I have taken then? It's so easy now to learn about HRT and hair removal and anything else relating to transitioning. More importantly, it's so easy now to connect with others who are dealing with the same issue.

I'm guessing that most of you would look at me and categorize my transsexuality as secondary. I'm looking at it, from my perspective, and factoring in how hard I worked to repress it at times, and I believe it's primary. That's why I don't think there's anything to be gained from either label.

[Nicole Dupre]

Maybe separating fetishism and gender identity makes sense But beyond that I think things are far more complicated, and in some ways far more simple, than those original "primary" and "secondary" categories.

In fact, I think even the various stages of transition are a more valid way to measure your "inner tranny". lol But that also opens the door for more useless categories. I mean, it's like saying that unless you have implants by a certain point in your transition, you're still a "boy in a dress". Is that fair? I'm not sure, but I would think it's just as valid a way to divide trannys.

[Justawannabe]

Thanks for the post Popeye99, that is exactly the story I've thought was fairly common for most people but less posted about here due to the type of board this is.

One question I have is why is the 'boy in a dress' almost the worst fate a person could suffer? How did THAT become such a big issue that people not only live in fear of the label, but actively try to stick the label on others so it can't be stuck to them.

[Nicole Dupre]

Thanks for the post Popeye99, that is exactly the story I've thought was fairly common for most people but less posted about here due to the type of board this is.

One question I have is why is the 'boy in a dress' almost the worst fate a person could suffer? How did THAT become such a big issue that people not only live in fear of the label, but actively try to stick the label on others so it can't be stuck to them.

Because "primary" and "secondary" don't mean a thing if most people treat you like a "boy in a dress" ie. if you are getting clocked a lot. I'm just pointing out that many people, including many trannys, see things that way. The issue is; why start making ANY trannys, in essence, second class citizens with such a supposedly clear dividing line? I think for some people, it can be a slippery slope. That's all.

[substanceD]

Thanks for the post Popeye99, that is exactly the story I've thought was fairly common for most people but less posted about here due to the type of board this is.

One question I have is why is the 'boy in a dress' almost the worst fate a person could suffer? How did THAT become such a big issue that people not only live in fear of the label, but actively try to stick the label on others so it can't be stuck to them.

My theory is that after living in the wrong gender for so long, the last thing a person would want is to be doomed to never be the right gender. Combine that with the fact that transgender people have traditionally been maligned through history, and that a tight knit, exclusive community is a big deal to any repressed minority and it makes sense that anyone seen as "toeing the line" so to speak would (understandably) be seen as an offense to a person fully transgendered.

[SarahG]

In fact, I think even the various stages of transition are a more valid way to measure your "inner tranny". lol But that also opens the door for more useless categories. I mean, it's like saying that unless you have implants by a certain point in your transition, you're still a "boy in a dress". Is that fair? I'm not sure, but I would think it's just as valid a way to divide trannys.

In a way there already is in a sense, just look at preop versus nonop labels.

[Nicole Dupre]

In fact, I think even the various stages of transition are a more valid way to measure your "inner tranny". lol But that also opens the door for more useless categories. I mean, it's like saying that unless you have implants by a certain point in your transition, you're still a "boy in a dress". Is that fair? I'm not sure, but I would think it's just as valid a way to divide trannys.

In a way there already is in a sense, just look at preop versus nonop labels.

That's exactly what I'm pointing out. And what about post vs. pre?

"True vs untrue", "primary" or "secondary", often don't amount to much in terms of how sane and well-adjusted a TS is. But one thing's for certain; pre-op M2F sex-workers of any kind are almost always seen as "less than".

[yodajazz]

Edit: I should also add that I am sympathetic with Hara's comments of mid life crisis transitioners (i.e. the people who live in uber masculine jobs/roles until they're in their 40s or 50s and then suddenly go fulltime & transition as if refusing to do so at once will kill them) thinking they "know it all" but I think that's more of a generational thing than anything else. I think a lot of that boils down to "I am 50 years old and you're practically just a kid, so you should listen to me even if my experience is irrelevant to yours, and if you don't then you're just being a stupid kid."

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I feel this is important. There is a philosphy which says that all human beings can learn from one another. If not from their similarities, then from our differences. All humans feel the same emotions, for example. Those of us who have spent time with children, know that you can learn something about life from an infant just coming out of the womb, and then through every step of life. So if a three year can teach you something about life, surely a fifty year old transisioner can teach you something about life. The fact that they may have taken a different road, but ended up making a similar decision about their body state is a point of obvious similarity.

And it may not even being about t related issues. Anyone who ages learns valuable lesson, which in turn gives them longer life. It is only natural that older people want to give their lessons to those behind them. But usually, the younger ones don't want to listen and they ended having to make the same mistakes. But the ones who learn, advance the human cause to a greater degree.

SarahG, it seems like you resent older people for bothering to survive.

And now back to your regularly scheduled program.

[SarahG]

There is a philosphy which says that all human beings can learn from one another. If not from their similarities, then from our differences.

However that requires people being able to rationally think, talk AND listen to each other, and lets face it- although technically possible, sometimes the odds of it happening are minuscule.

The problem, in this case, is that in certain trans spaces (be it online support forums or physical support groups), a big chunk (not all) of the vocal late transitioners try to exert their experiences as if its "their way or the highway" when it comes to transitioning; where they'll berate anyone who goes on HRT DIY, and demand that anyone younger then ~35 wait at least that long to transition because "that's how they did it," and godforbid they don't get FFS (because they happened to be lucky enough to start before T damage would necessitate it to pass).

Telling a trans person who is 25 that they should wait 10 years to go on HRT isn't going to go over well, and its going to go over worse if its delivered as an ultimatum. When the younger transitioner responds to the orders (its not advice if the person speaking to you demands you do everything as they say) to say something along the lines of "well, thats nice it worked for you well that way and all but it really doesn't help my situation, I am not going to wait 10 years to go on HRT, even if it means going DIY" what follows is an immediate argument/pissing match/flame war of two people yelling at each other (sometimes with likeminded people taking one of the two sides to join in on the screaming) and the conversation effectively ends.

I've seen this exact scenario play out time and time again on trans support forums/groups, where some (again, not all) outspoken late transitioners insist things have to be done a certain way because that's how they did it, and belittle/flame anyone who dares to disagree with that exact process. HRT isn't the only point of disagreement, its just the example I'm using to talk about this (I can think of several other scenarios that are otherwise identical to the above).

surely a fifty year old transisioner can teach you something about life.

Sure, I've never said otherwise. But, to use another proverb- you can't shake hands with a clinched fist. People have to be willing to listen and think even when it flies in the face of their own experiences.

SarahG, it seems like you resent older people for bothering to survive.

Why is it that there are some people who will get their panties in a knot whenever anyone says anything even remotely critical of some of the late transitioners?

I mean seriously, it seems like every time anyone points out anything that could be construed as critical of a late transitioner, there is someone somewhere who immediately responds with some off topic rant about how "late transitioners should be able to transition too!" while knowing damn well that no one in the thread has suggested otherwise.

[BellaBellucci]

The problem, in this case, is that in certain trans spaces (be it online support forums or physical support groups), a big chunk (not all) of the vocal late transitioners try to exert their experiences as if its "their way or the highway" when it comes to transitioning; where they'll berate anyone who goes on HRT DIY, and demand that anyone younger then ~35 wait at least that long to transition because "that's how they did it," and godforbid they don't get FFS (because they happened to be lucky enough to start before T damage would necessitate it to pass).

I remember when I first started and I did research on laser versus electro. I immediately thought, 'why would anyone torture themselves by using electrocution one hair at a time?' The late transitioners had an answer for me: scarring.

Fast forward 4 years. I've had nothing but laser and I have no scarring. It actually occurred to me about 2 years ago that this would be the case and I realized that what these people tried to do was dupe me. They were jealous that our generation has an easier, more effective way to remove unwanted hair (and without the need for pattern growth), so they just lied about it. I can't even begin to tell you how many false lectures I received on the dangers of laser treatments, but now people use them for everything.

I co-sign every word you said 100%. They (late transitioners) told me it was their way or the highway... so I started driving!

~BB~