GOTH THREAD

[eclipsemint]

I prefer naughty Elmo to Emo Elmo.

“Being friends with someone you would rather be in love with is like being invited behind the barn to look at the stars and only looking at the stars.”

[SarahG]

Yo if it wasn't for your whip I'd have nothing to strip
If it wasn't for wrist's I'd have nothing to slit

Woah, hold on....
If you want it to count, it's down the road, not across the street!

That's just mean!

Well, when I'm right, I'm right.

..besides, it's not like I said anything that hasn't already been all over the net in various 4chan-like meme forms. I mean seriously, and I thought I lived under a rock in a cave in Siberia. Who hasn't heard that one by now?

You guys need to lighten up, if that's enough to make you PO'd, chances are you'll be even less of a fan of my darker humor. And HP1000, if you're gonna bitch at that being said, you should bitch at me- rockabilly did nothing but post a visual aid to what I had already said earlier in the thread (which, was inevitable after mentioning it).

Why isn't anyone pissed off & lecturing Ryz for joking about slitting his wrist in the first place? Is it really that big of a jump to go from wrist slitting jokes about self injury/suicide to jingles about "how to do it the right way"?

[rockabilly]

Sarah defended me

[Deimos]

Damnit, I was hoping to stay out of this thread- but now its just too hard to resist it...

Now let's get into what Traditional Goths listen to. Traditional Gothic music (at it's initial stage simply called Goth or Goth Rock) is a branch of the post-punk era of the 1970's. Siouxsie & The Banshees were the earliest group to have ever been given the "goth" label. Although they didn't like it, they ran with it, and eventually embraced it. The 1980's is really were gothic subculture in music lifted off. With such artists as The Bahuas, The Cure, Depeche Mode, Duran Duran, and Real Life. They paved a road which gave way to early industrial at the time Nine Inch Nails, KMFDM, Skinny Puppy, and Ministry were the earliest.

This might come off as semantics, but I think it would be quite erroneous to propose that the evolution of goth-derivative music, to say nothing of fashion, is "linear" along a chronological span of time. Sure there is some common origins (for lack of a better word, I almost wanted to say etiology lol) but it (imho falsely) paints the picture of "goth" turning into all these things, when it didn't. "Goth" still exists, and I can think of a few albums of the last IDK, 5-10 years or so, that sound like they could be taken straight out of the 80s- coming from bands that didn't exist at any point in time close to then. There's a constant give & take, and it runs in multiple directions, that's why so many of the older bands' "sound" changed so much as time went on (i.e. Lacrimosa, The Sisters Of Mercy, KMFDM, The Cure... there's more but that's what first popped in my head). Then there's all those cross over bands that just make things more confusing (i.e. Sanguis Et Cinis, Lacrimosa, Theatre of Tragedy [this one might be controversial to put as a "cross over band" I suppose]...), the genres that people falsely assume to be goth-derivative (i.e. EBM) because it "sounds" similar to some people to bands people usually associate with goth-derivative like KMFDM. And then there's wtf do you even call Abbney Park (and don't even think about telling me "steampunk," one band a genre does not make!).

I've seen several flow charts trying to "map out" how all these genres connect to each other, it doesn't look like a spider web, and it doesn't look like a line. Frankly, it looks like what happens when you take a 1st grader, tell him to brain storm for an essay, and then get the kid drunk on "jesus juice" so he can throw up all over the place. One big disorganized mess... and not one anyone really wants to clean up.

Confusion... if you think Disturbed, Slipknot, Mindless Self Indulgence, Korn, Static X, Godsmack, Marilyn Manson (shock rock, not goth.. let's be intelligent people), Retard-O-Bot, Jack Off Jill, Atari Teenage Riot or Rob Zombie are gothic... you'd be very wrong.

Confusion.... If you think HIM, My Chemical Romance, Evanescence, Fall Out Boy, Taking Back Sunday, Thursday, or Saves The Day is in any shape or form Gothic.. you'd be so wrong....

I have a bone to pick with this. I've read a lot of rants & raves about "what goth is," and its more common for those essays to say that then not... but let's be honest here, do people ever really say "disturbed is goth" frequently ...or is this just an example done for dramatic effect? Who actually makes those assertions? Do people commonly propose that those bands are gothic?

As you'd notice I put two of your examples in bold, to be fair I have noticed that Korn is frequently tagged incorrectly on last.fm... BUT, tags for bands are routinely incorrect on last.fm, and the more popular a band is- the more mistakes show threw. Blindly trusting a last.fm tag is like blindly trusting the "genre" ID3 tag field on an mp3 downloaded from limewire. Still I have noticed that for most bands, one of the first 5-6 tags is often an accurate one, so most people tend to have a pretty good feel (broadly) for what to label a given band.

As to Evanescence.... I think this is a separate issue. There are two things going on there, first being that the term "gothic metal" has been used & abused to the point where its no longer a meaningful label whatsoever. It's not so much that people think Evanescence is gothic (when it is not), but that people have been thinking it is "gothic metal" when it is not. This is because people have started using the term "gothic metal" to mean "symphonic metal when the lead vocalist is a girl" (fucking facepalm...). Not only have people seemingly replaced the "symphonic metal" label with "gothic metal," but they apply it so liberally that I find myself asking "where's the fucking metal!?!"

Case in point, Within Temptation. Their first album, "Enter" was about as close as that genre gets to metal. Now go pull their single, "Running Up That Hill"- and what do you find? Not metal... but a Tori Amos cover! Their newer releases are all about the same. Good? Sure [if you're ever into that stuff], but it's not metal. Calling it anything ending in "-metal" is just a blatant mistake, and as big of one as calling it "gothic." I used this example intentionally because Within Temptation (their newer stuff) sounds extremely similar to Evanescence (I know many people have noticed their similarity in fact). The other thing I'd propose, is that while most Americans don't know about Within Temptation (its not a band clearchannel has picked up afaik), they do know about Evanescence (which was). I think a lot of the "Evanescence is not a gothic band!" chatter online is nothing more than a simple "let's go bitch about this band, because people know about it since its popular/mainstream!" You'd have to be joking to propose that people assert Evanescence is gothic as much as people assert Evanescence to be "gothic metal." But how come people complain so much about the former instead of the later?

Very good points actually.

[Deimos]

haha i posted this as a blog originally since this thread is here i post it here too.

Me on goth subculture:

Goth fashion is stereotyped as a dark, sometimes morbid, eroticized fashion and style of dress. Typical gothic fashion includes dyed black hair, dark eyeliner, black fingernails, black period-styled clothing; goths may or may not have piercings. Styles are often borrowed from the Elizabethan, Victorian or medieval period and often express Catholic, Wiccan or other religious imagery such as crucifixes, pentagrams or ankhs. The extent to which goths hold to this style varies amongst individuals as well as geographical locality, though virtually all Goths wear some of these elements. Fashion designers, such as Alexander McQueen and John Galliano, have also been described as practicing "Haute Goth". Goth fashion is often confused with heavy metal fashion outsiders often mistake fans of heavy metal for goth, particularly those who wear black trench coats, Tripp pants or wear "corpse paint" (a term associated with the black metal music scene).

Now let's get into what Traditional Goths listen to. Traditional Gothic music (at it's initial stage simply called Goth or Goth Rock) is a branch of the post-punk era of the 1970's. Siouxsie & The Banshees were the earliest group to have ever been given the "goth" label. Although they didn't like it, they ran with it, and eventually embraced it. The 1980's is really were gothic subculture in music lifted off. With such artists as The Bahuas, The Cure, Depeche Mode, Duran Duran, and Real Life. They paved a road which gave way to early industrial at the time Nine Inch Nails, KMFDM, Skinny Puppy, and Ministry were the earliest.

Fast forward about 5 more years. Enter the age of Cyberpunk and Bondage. By Bondage, I don't mean BDSM. I'm referring to the ridiculous outfits people wear� that have pointless straps of cloth material or chains (and usually d-rings) attached on to and left to dangle and get caught in your bike spokes. At any rate, the Cyberpunk and Bondage ear have made it hard to clarify what is Gothic, and what is just people who like weird styles of clothing and being different. Let's get something clear for anyone curious. Bondage is not a gothic style. It is a Metal head style. Cyberpunk is just that, punks in tight futuristic looking, but mildly gothic in style, outfits usually consisting of latex or vinyl, and the occasional leather outfit.

Confusion... if you think Disturbed, Slipknot, Mindless Self Indulgence, Korn, Static X, Godsmack, Marilyn Manson (shock rock, not goth.. let's be intelligent people), Retard-O-Bot, Jack Off Jill, Atari Teenage Riot or Rob Zombie are gothic... you'd be very wrong. Those are all metal, rock, and punk groups. Like those group's fans, they also get confused for somehow being affiliated in the long run with goths.

Fast forward 5 more years. Enter the age of Emo. According to most Traditional Goths, Emo is similar to "punk for pussies," as a fellow in Australia told me. What, they have Goths in the down under?

At any rate the Emo scene, extends into Screamo, Metalcore, Straight Edge, and Hardcore sub-cultures. Think of Emo's as birds. You have a bunch of different kinds of birds.

Now the difference lies herein... 9 out of 10 "emos" or whichever ever you'd like to call them, they're all the same, (yes, they are.. there is no point for you to try and prove, I will not entertain your arguments, it's that simple, sorry, not really, deal with it) do not have bad lives at all. They, in fact, have nothing to be emotional about. Well maybe if their best friend dies... you know the one... Fluffy... he was a great hamster. But most of them get the world handed to them on a platter by their families and spit in their faces. Emos are associated with Goths because of the black clothing, eyeliner and occasional depressing song a Goth may turn on. Emos don't connect with music like Goths do. They do not listen to even vaguely similar music. Stand an Emo next to a Goth and they look nothing a like. It's like standing a rabid wolvering next to a bunny.. and let's face it... in this scenario, emos are very fluffy. (theres that word again... fluffy, that must mean something)

Confusion.... If you think HIM, My Chemical Romance, Evanescence, Fall Out Boy, Taking Back Sunday, Thursday, or Saves The Day is in any shape or form Gothic.. you'd be so wrong.

In the long run everyone will label themselves as something. It's called tribal association. It has existed since the age of Mesopotamia, the earliest know civilization to human kind. Everyone will flock to groups of similar interest. Hence why it so fucking hard to tell who's who and what's what.

One more thing, before it's thrown out there.... I understand people venture outside their little boxes and listen something different now and then. It doesn't change the label you associate yourself with. See you may call yourself goth, but unless you have the mentality of a goth, you aren't one. (you know like that juggalo thing, if you don't have the mentality of a juggalo your just a poser, the same principle applies here.) Although you may not be a poser per say... Over all it's not about what you listen to or how you dress but how you think, act, feel, and live your life. However appearance and preference plays a major role in tribal association. If your an emo, your not gonna go hang out with a group of wiggers and thugs are you? No.. your going to look for others like you.. straight edges kids, scene kids, whatever.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to have a friend who listens to rap and all you listen to is metal... that's just a retard conclusion for you, the reader, to draw. What I'm saying is when you find yourself in a large group, who do you see around you? EXACTLY, other people like you!

But let me make this clear... there is no such thing as a person who listens to "EVERYTHING." Let me put on some fucking Frank Sinatra, Barry Manilow, or Barbra Streisand.. shit no one but your grand parents could even listen to... You listen to everything... my fucking ass you do.

I hope this help cleared up any questions you may have had (or self doubts) about Gothic subculture.

i wrote this all like two months ago i figured i'd share

I listen to everything

Do you listen to Horrorcore?

[rockabilly]

A few faves

[Dirky]

Anytime 'core' is attached to music I rapidly lose interest.

[rockabilly]

more

[Dirky]

No mention of the Horrors yet?

[rockabilly]

Nor Bauhaus musically i swing more towards the punk and psychobilly music style.