just an observation

[MacShreach]

And lastly, believing in miracles, is just admitting that things happen that are beyond our understanding.

I would not wish to get drawn into a discussion about the rights and wrongs of one religion versus another (if ever there was a case of the pot calling the kettle black...) but accepting that there are things beyond my understanding is NOT the same thing as "believing in miracles." It is accepting that my knowledge is not complete, which is something any intelligent person does every day. Some of those things we may be in a position to research and define, some we may not; that does not make them undefinable.

Belief in miracles per se, however, is a part of a faith-based mindset that posits that not merely are some things beyond our knowledge, they are by definition forever incomprehensible to us, because they are part of the "supernatural." A miracle is, by definition, an occurrence where a supernatural power reached out and caused something to happen in the natural world that was otherwise completely impossible. The function of the concept of "miracle" in religion is to demonstrate that the supernatural exists; since, however, there is no proof that the supernatural does exist, it is up to those who believe in miracles to prove that they happen, and are not merely an invention of mankind; we cannot use one unprovable proposition (miracles) to prove another (the existence of the supernatural.)

This is just another aspect of the fascinating circular logic of the faith-based mindset: if gods exist, then miracles can happen/if miracles can happen then gods must exist. The problem is that there is no evidence whatsoever for either proposition, so, as I have said before, we can repeat the simple test-- just prove it, in a scientifically sound, repeatable, testable manner.

Otherwise, to distil what I have previously said, it's just your mind playing tricks on you. This is not a denial of spirituality, which is a potentially very intense human emotion we can all share, whether we accept gods and BDs or not; it is just the observation that emotions are a function of the mind, not the external world.

[yosi]

It may sound like propaganda to you, but there are untold millions of people that could tell you how religious principles and spirituality, have made them better persons. I’m one of those.

if you feel that religious principles made you a better person , all I can say is that I'm happy for you.

we share the same passion to be better persons , to understand the world around us better , to learn more and more about this wonderful world we live in , the world that gave us the most precious present of all : our life.

we differ in our perspective , we use different tools to understand the world around us better , I like to get answers , but I also like to ask new questions based on these answers , even if I'm mistaken sometimes like anyone of us , mistakes are also great true tools to learn new things , much better tools in my opinion than written words from 2000 years ago, when life was completely different than ours, , a completely different reality than ours .

And lastly, believing in miracles, is just admitting that things happen that are beyond our understanding. I’ve been blessed to witness couple in my lifetime. Maybe I’ll tell you about them one day.

you see miracles because you want to define them as miracles.
if things happen that are beyond our understanding today , you might find a new logical explanation tomorrow ,after you expanded your understanding, this is what learning is all about.
and the more we learn , the more we realise how much we don't know.

quite an interesting and amazing world , isn't it?

[yodajazz]

...
I like to get answers , but I also like to ask new questions based on these answers , even if I'm mistaken sometimes like anyone of us , mistakes are also great true tools to learn new things , much better tools in my opinion than written words from 2000 years ago, when life was completely different than ours, , a completely different reality than ours ....

Thanks for your response. I had a busy few days, so here's my response to this part of your post:

You have it wrong. The main point is that the human behaviors that happened back in Biblical times, are still happening today. Here’s an example: I have watched every transgender video on YouTube and the vast majority talk about haters. This is rightfully so because some jerk is always saying hateful things. But, if you look at the story of Christ’s crucifixion, it was the ultimate ‘haters’ story, or some might say a haters story of Biblical proportions. He was going around healing people and other good things in front of crowds of people. The major people he criticized, were those that though they were better than everyone else. And incidentally, those people were called Pharisees, were like modern day Republicans and Religious Right people. The point was, not only did he have haters, but others who supported him turned on him, after he failed to meet their political expectations. He was executed and no one lifted a finger stop it. In fact he could have escaped crucifixion when he was chosen for a game show of the time, that should have be called “Condemned Idol” but the crowd chose a thief as the winner. (I say Jesus was ‘robbed’, he was clearly the better performer). And Christ story was not the only, ‘haters’ story; the story of Joseph was a classic case which started with his own family being jealous. In both cases the moral was that they both triumphed over the haters.

My point about this is that the ts women who get so upset over haters, could be more at peace when they understand even the most revered person thru the centuries also had them. The bible and other religious texts contain stories about people, and the lessons their lives taught. As you said people learn form their mistakes, but many are making the same mistakes made those two thousand or more years ago. The customs were different but, the behavior was similar. Sex scandals among political leadership, family betrayal and problems, and a nation which lost site of its founding vision, are just some of the human stories.

I say it is the same reality, only different clothes.

[MacShreach]

...
I like to get answers , but I also like to ask new questions based on these answers , even if I'm mistaken sometimes like anyone of us , mistakes are also great true tools to learn new things , much better tools in my opinion than written words from 2000 years ago, when life was completely different than ours, , a completely different reality than ours ....

Thanks for your response. I had a busy few days, so here's my response to this part of your post:

You have it wrong.

With respect, I don't think he does. Yosi is saying, I think, that we have better ways of understanding the world around us now than we did 2000 years ago. We understand evolution; we understand physics; we understand astronomy. These are just a few of the tools we understand now but did not then.

It's hardly yosi's fault, or mine, or anyone else's, if people today refuse to accept that these tools and methods of understanding exist and instead, blindly insist on believing as literal truth, books written by people who did not have them.

There are none so blind as those who will not see, as they say.

[yosi]

you said people learn form their mistakes, but many are making the same mistakes made those two thousand or more years ago. The customs were different but, the behavior was similar. Sex scandals among political leadership, family betrayal and problems, and a nation which lost site of its founding vision, are just some of the human stories.

I say it is the same reality, only different clothes.

you are right that it's the same reality only different clothes , and that many are making the same mistakes that were made two thousand or more years ago.

one of the biggest mistakes we do and always did, is to ignore simple facts around us and rely only on written words , to ignore the so obvious because IT IS so obvious.

one simple fact we choose to ignore is the fact that all around the world we live in , no matter which country , color , race or religion, women and men are born more or less on a 50/50 ratio .

does it prove anything? I think it does , it proves that men and women ARE equal , if that ratio of 50/50 is kept for thousands of years it's not just a coincidence.

I don't have to go into details on how religions treat women..........trish called it a hidden propaganda in religions and she was right.

another thing we choose to ignore because IT IS , so obvious , is that green/blue ball we live on , look for yourself how bad we treat it as if we have another choice ,another option ,another green/blue ball to live on.

maybe the problem is that it's written somewhere that we do when the simple facts show that we don't.

[trish]

To continue the hijacking, I just thought this was interesting and relevant to our discussion

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/co...wer/#more-2444