Death Penalty

[robertlouis]

I don't see how you can make a political judgement of selected Russians and then decide this disqualifies Russia as a whole as being 'civilised'. Presumably you could have done the same with the United Kingdom in the 1980s if you thought Margaret Thatcher was destroying the country -much as her acolytes said of the Labour Governments of 1966-1979....as I said, it depends on how you define civilisation; surely politics is but one aspect of that-?

I agree entirely, but as politics and the enactment of policy have a significantly greater impact on society whether that be through the agency of economics, social policy or ideology, that's probably where we should start rather than applaud past achievements in the arts.

But I take your point in relative terms in respect of Britain under Thatcher, and the Blair (and Cameron) governments' seemingly relentless assault on civil liberties.

[Prospero]

Are you considering the broad sweep then Stavros? I am breaking one of the cardinal rules on the Internet now be evoking the Nazis... but would you assess Germany as being a civilised place in the late 1930s and early 1940s? It was of course the nation that once created Bach, and Goethe and scores more of the great civilisational icons of the West. But during that period a huge part of the people turned their backs on civilised values. George Steiner I think coined the cliche about Nazis killing Jews by day and then going home to listen to Brahms or Beethoven.

I think that a nation held in thrall by Putin and his kleptocratic cronies - and which now allows and encourages (with the resurgence of Orthodox Christianity) the vicious victimisation of minority groups loses the right to be described as fully civilised. Though I admit that almost all of the great "civilisations" of history have been flawed. Do the Aztec qualify as a "civilisation" when at their very core was human sacrifice and combat?

[robertlouis]

Are you considering the broad sweep then Stavros? I am breaking one of the cardinal rules on the Internet now be evoking the Nazis... but would you assess Germany as being a civilised place in the late 1930s and early 1940s? It was of course the nation that once created Bach, and Goethe and scores more of the great civilisational icons of the West. But during that period a huge part of the people turned their backs on civilised values. George Steiner I think coined the cliche about Nazis killing Jews by day and then going home to listen to Brahms or Beethoven.

I think that a nation held in thrall by Putin and his kleptocratic cronies - and which now allows and encourages (with the resurgence of Orthodox Christianity) the vicious victimisation of minority groups loses the right to be described as fully civilised. Though I admit that almost all of the great "civilisations" of history have been flawed. Do the Aztec qualify as a "civilisation" when at their very core was human sacrifice and combat?

And no-one could deny the glories and achievements of Chinese civilisation and all the benefits that they have brought to the world. But was Mao "civilised"?

Or, come to that, Stalin?

[Prospero]

Athens had slaves

[LibertyHarkness]

welcome to the human race its in our nature as a species, always has and always will be. ..

[giovanni_hotel]

It you're poor and lack the financial means to pay for an adequate private legal defense, in the U.S. your chances of being convicted for a felony crime once charged are almost guaranteed.

Public defenders are adjuncts of the district attorney's office. They're all on the same team.

Recent history has shown that maybe HUNDREDS of prisoners have been wrongly convicted under death penalty statutes.

It's cheaper to keep prisoners alive than for the state to pay for the endless appeals, etc. to delay execution.

Of course there are people who deserve and belong in prison, but the death penalty in this country is outdated.

Life in prison with near solitary confinement for 20+ hours a day is hell on earth for most of us anyway.

[CORVETTEDUDE]

For all those that prefer "LIFE" imprisonment to "Execution", I submit that we provide for their sustenance and livelihood out of your income. I prefer not to support their need to breath air.

[Stavros]

Are you considering the broad sweep then Stavros? I am breaking one of the cardinal rules on the Internet now be evoking the Nazis... but would you assess Germany as being a civilised place in the late 1930s and early 1940s? It was of course the nation that once created Bach, and Goethe and scores more of the great civilisational icons of the West. But during that period a huge part of the people turned their backs on civilised values. George Steiner I think coined the cliche about Nazis killing Jews by day and then going home to listen to Brahms or Beethoven.

I think that a nation held in thrall by Putin and his kleptocratic cronies - and which now allows and encourages (with the resurgence of Orthodox Christianity) the vicious victimisation of minority groups loses the right to be described as fully civilised. Though I admit that almost all of the great "civilisations" of history have been flawed. Do the Aztec qualify as a "civilisation" when at their very core was human sacrifice and combat?

a) "The edifice of total war and of the death camps, of totalitarian torture and "the big lie", had its base, its contemporary triumphs, in the heart-lands of western culture. The spheres of Auschwitz-Birkenau and of the Beethoven recital, of the torture-cellar and the great library, were contiguous in space and time. Men could come home from their day's butchery and falsehood to weep over Rilke, or play Schubert..." (George Steiner, 'Introduction' to George Steiner: A Reader (Penguin Books, 1984, p11).

b) You may need to define your concept of civilisation before deciding Russia is no longer civilised. If you think Putin's Russia is peopled by kleptocrats, I wonder what you made of 'Yeltsin's Russia'. Is the UK so squeaky clean?
I seem to recall that in 2007 Tony Blair when he was Prime Minister was told by the Saudis that if the investigation by the Serious Fraud Office into bribes in BAE related to arms sales to Saudi Arabia was not halted, they would make another '7/7 that much easier, a blatant threat to murder British civilians which led Blair to put sufficient pressure on the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith that he intervened to stop the investigation -you might want to ask who runs the judiciary in this country, the Judiciary, the Prime Minister, or the government of Saudi Arabia.
The Russian government has passed a law making it illegal to promote homosexuality; the United Kingdom government introduced an amendment to the Local Government Act in 1986 in which it stated that local education authorities "shall not intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality" or "promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship..." Repealed in Scotland in 2000, in England and Wales in 2003.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/200.../bae.tonyblair
http://www.theguardian.com/world/200.../bae.armstrade

And so on.

c) "After Auschwitz, all European culture is garbage" (Adorno) -discuss.

[giovanni_hotel]

For all those that prefer "LIFE" imprisonment to "Execution", I submit that we provide for their sustenance and livelihood out of your income. I prefer not to support their need to breath air.

What are you talking about?? You already pay out of your taxes to incarcerate prison inmates.

It costs states MORE to keep prisoners on death row because of the cost of constant appeals than it does to give them life imprisonment anyway.

You don't wanna pay the price to house criminals in jail? Quit paying taxes. And go start your own country.