Animals and the men who love them / NIGHTMARE THREAD !!!

[SarahG]

Thats not what we are talking about.

It absolutely is what we're talking about.

Menopause is a natural process that ALL gg's will go threw at some point in their lives. HRT is risky for them, just as it is for us- and it is their CHOICE to go on E once menopause starts.

Something CAN be both a CHOICE and a MEDICAL TREATMENT.

So why would a GG want to go on estrogen? Well think about it, its the exact same reason why we do; prevents facial hair growth (how many post menopausal women have you seen with hair on their upper lips?), keeps their skin softer, makes them look better, makes them feel more comfortable- its the exact same set of reasons. The only difference is that none of the reasons they cite are as severe... a post menopausal GG may get facial hair, but they're not going to get a full beard like a GB will under normal, natural circumstances.

Absolutely no one in the medical community, the health care community, or anywhere else for that matter, will argue that "estrogen replacement therapy for post menopausal women isn't a medical treatment." Yet here there is no underlying disorder at all, there certainly is no disease... menopause is a natural process that happens to all girls eventually.

Almost ALL medical treatments are elective. Almost ALL medical treatments are the patient's choice. The only time this isn't the case, is when a medical treatment is needed in order for the patient to live, and even then it is still a choice. People with cancer decide every day in this country whether or not they should CHOOSE to go on chemo, but the bulk of the medical care that goes down in this country, every day (even right now) has nothing to do with eminently saving people's lives, but rather to improve patients' quality of life. Sometimes that is to end nonlethal pain (like an ingrown toe nail), sometimes it is merely to make the patient happier or more comfortable.

No wonder no one takes us seriously or gives us good jobs, if we can't even say we made a conscious choice to switch genders how could we possibly be given a job of great responsibility. If we simply admitted this was a choice to make us happier then maybe we would not be saddled with a medical condition.

This is where medical ethics becomes an issue however. Doctors have an ethical duty, an oath to do no harm. If I walk into a doctor's office and demand they amputate my leg, no way in hell are they going to do that.

But that's basically what we have going on with SRS- a healthy, seemingly normal patient walks into the office and demands their dick & balls get lopped off. Even if the patient is sane, informed, and fully sincere, the doctor ethically and legally cannot then go and cut off your genitals because that would be doing harm! That's why GID is in the medical texts, it empowers surgeons by saying "the patient looks normal & healthy but really they have GID so now it's ok to cut off their genitals"

Do you really, honestly believe job discrimination happens because trans people say its a medical condition & not a choice? Have you ever even heard of an employer saying "well... I was going to hire you, but since you didn't say it was an alternative lifestyle and insist its not a choice, I am going to have to show you where the door is..." That's insane!

And this says nothing of the REAL scientific evidence out there that shows that GID patients really do have brains of the opposite sex. Male and female brains are not identical, there are real subjective, measurable, tangible differences in brain structures & brain operation. You can take someone who is trans, give them a brain scan- and see on the spot "whether or not they have a female brain." This won't be possible if it was just some "fairy tale."

But I am getting off topic here (which is one of my flaws), and I do have to say with honesty, that I don't give a shit about whether or not it is a choice.

The only time someone cares about whether or not it is a choice, is when they go and say "you can't do this [fire, beat, kill, whatever it is] to me, I didn't have a choice here." Even if it is true that there is a medical abnormality here, and that abnormality can be subjectively detected (which it is), it isn't relevant!

If a parent goes and says "you sick pervert, I won't have my kid be a tranny- I am going to kill you", the response shouldn't be "but I didn't have a choice"- the response should be "murder is wrong, you shouldn't be killing someone for this- whether it be a choice or not"!

[mimiplastique]

AMAZING THE POWER OF A FEW WORDS


What do you really think about em' ???

i have been reading alot of threads here recently (as in the last 5 min) and i have noticed that the amount of cross dressers and crossdessing on this forum has increased rapidly over the last few weeks .

does not shock me one bit but just thought i would like to make a point of it seeing how alot of them have OUTRAGEOUS ideas going through their mind at all times .


Please share your thoughts

[lahabra1976]

you really know your stuff thats for sure

[melissacarter]

Thats not what we are talking about.

It absolutely is what we're talking about.

Menopause is a natural process that ALL gg's will go threw at some point in their lives. HRT is risky for them, just as it is for us- and it is their CHOICE to go on E once menopause starts.

Something CAN be both a CHOICE and a MEDICAL TREATMENT.

So why would a GG want to go on estrogen? Well think about it, its the exact same reason why we do; prevents facial hair growth (how many post menopausal women have you seen with hair on their upper lips?), keeps their skin softer, makes them look better, makes them feel more comfortable- its the exact same set of reasons. The only difference is that none of the reasons they cite are as severe... a post menopausal GG may get facial hair, but they're not going to get a full beard like a GB will under normal, natural circumstances.

Absolutely no one in the medical community, the health care community, or anywhere else for that matter, will argue that "estrogen replacement therapy for post menopausal women isn't a medical treatment." Yet here there is no underlying disorder at all, there certainly is no disease... menopause is a natural process that happens to all girls eventually.

Almost ALL medical treatments are elective. Almost ALL medical treatments are the patient's choice. The only time this isn't the case, is when a medical treatment is needed in order for the patient to live, and even then it is still a choice. People with cancer decide every day in this country whether or not they should CHOOSE to go on chemo, but the bulk of the medical care that goes down in this country, every day (even right now) has nothing to do with eminently saving people's lives, but rather to improve patients' quality of life. Sometimes that is to end nonlethal pain (like an ingrown toe nail), sometimes it is merely to make the patient happier or more comfortable.

No wonder no one takes us seriously or gives us good jobs, if we can't even say we made a conscious choice to switch genders how could we possibly be given a job of great responsibility. If we simply admitted this was a choice to make us happier then maybe we would not be saddled with a medical condition.

This is where medical ethics becomes an issue however. Doctors have an ethical duty, an oath to do no harm. If I walk into a doctor's office and demand they amputate my leg, no way in hell are they going to do that.

But that's basically what we have going on with SRS- a healthy, seemingly normal patient walks into the office and demands their dick & balls get lopped off. Even if the patient is sane, informed, and fully sincere, the doctor ethically and legally cannot then go and cut off your genitals because that would be doing harm! That's why GID is in the medical texts, it empowers surgeons by saying "the patient looks normal & healthy but really they have GID so now it's ok to cut off their genitals"

Do you really, honestly believe job discrimination happens because trans people say its a medical condition & not a choice? Have you ever even heard of an employer saying "well... I was going to hire you, but since you didn't say it was an alternative lifestyle and insist its not a choice, I am going to have to show you where the door is..." That's insane!

And this says nothing of the REAL scientific evidence out there that shows that GID patients really do have brains of the opposite sex. Male and female brains are not identical, there are real subjective, measurable, tangible differences in brain structures & brain operation. You can take someone who is trans, give them a brain scan- and see on the spot "whether or not they have a female brain." This won't be possible if it was just some "fairy tale."

But I am getting off topic here (which is one of my flaws), and I do have to say with honesty, that I don't give a shit about whether or not it is a choice.

The only time someone cares about whether or not it is a choice, is when they go and say "you can't do this [fire, beat, kill, whatever it is] to me, I didn't have a choice here." Even if it is true that there is a medical abnormality here, and that abnormality can be subjectively detected (which it is), it isn't relevant!

If a parent goes and says "you sick pervert, I won't have my kid be a tranny- I am going to kill you", the response shouldn't be "but I didn't have a choice"- the response should be "murder is wrong, you shouldn't be killing someone for this- whether it be a choice or not"!

Your problem is substituting opinion for fact when it is only your opinion. You have a hard time differentiating the two.

When I was going through my name and gender change you gave me a big shpeil about how New Jersey requires all kinds of surgeon notes and doctor records and how I can't just use a doctor's letter and get my gender switched. Well, guess what? I got my gender changed to female:

http://www.hungangels.com/board/view...er=asc&start=0

NJ vitals and the SSA have both told me that when dealing with their documents (I am talking about NJ vitals, not NJ dmv- I've never had a NJ DL) they require the actual surgical notes/records, WHICH IS MORE THAN JUST A SURGEON'S LETTER. This differs from some states where you can get by with a carefully worded surgeon's letter after an orchi.

So much for your facts.

Everything I said in my previous post stands and nothing you said here counters, only that you are insisting this is medical not a lifestyle choice. Bringing genetic women into the picture does not change the position-these are choices, Sarah, and you cannot get around that.

[blckhaze]

damn did this thread get sidetracked.
Was a a potentially good one to.

[SarahG]

When I was going through my name and gender change you gave me a big shpeil about how New Jersey requires all kinds of surgeon notes and doctor records and how I can't just use a doctor's letter and get my gender switched. Well, guess what? I got my gender changed to female

Which means nothing at all. Hell, any girl who is preop & passable can go into a crowded DMV, walk up to the counter to the underpaid, overworked DMV clerk and say "there's been a mistake, this says male incorrectly" and get a female DL. Yet per the actual policies and regulations and laws, very few states let preops get female DL's.

I know a couple surgeons who do orchi's who will write letters basically saying that the patient's genitals have been modified and therefor the patient should be referred to as female. In most states that will fly as enough to get a female BC, even when when the state CLEARLY only changes BC's for postops.

Just because the law or a policy says one thing, doesn't mean it is being followed. Just because you can go and find a busy civil servant with poor training to issue a female BC, doesn't mean that the clerk did so legally (or did so validly). That doesn't even mean the document would hold up in court if challenged.

But I really don't need to explain that point, I am sure everyone here understands it already. I did talk to the SSA, I also talked to NJ vitals. What I have stated on this board is precisely what they told me... its accuracy would ENTIRELY depend upon the accuracy of these civil servants, aka clerks the whole trans community has known -for years- don't always know what they're doing, and don't always care what they're doing.

..only that you are insisting this is medical not a lifestyle choice.

Really? Because that's not what I said, go re-read my post.

What part of me saying it was a choice confused you?

[lahabra1976]

damn did this thread get sidetracked.
Was a a potentially good one to.

I don't remember the orginal subject

[muhmuh]

Really?

feminine enough?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Petras

You can take someone who is trans, give them a brain scan- and see on the spot "whether or not they have a female brain." This won't be possible if it was just some "fairy tale."

unless there has been a recent major breakthrough which i dont know about that kind of research is still very much inconclusive and no study holds up to basic rigour... in science terms its somewhere between a conjecture and a hypothesis

[SarahG]

unless there has been a recent major breakthrough which i dont know about that kind of research is still very much inconclusive and no study holds up to basic rigour... in science terms its somewhere between a conjecture and a hypothesis

The studies out there, particularly looking at the lymbic nucleus are convincing. The criticism I have seen so far, has not attacked the findings of these studies (which showed that yes, the transsexual patients tended to be typically female in the brain scans), but the size of the sample size.

I am not sure how big of a sample size would be required to satisfy everyone, and I am sure there are trans patient age groups that have not been studied yet in this manner. It would certainly be interesting to see how young transitioners compared to middle aged transitioners compared to even later aged transitioners (believe most surgeons have the cut off age for srs in what, the late 60s?). The other relevant question would be "if these changes are present, are they there naturally there from birth- or are they being caused by experiences over a lifetime, a natural occurring process after birth, or prolonged HRT usage...?"

But the lymbic nucleus studies aren't the only studies that have been done, yes the sample sizes have been small even when looking at other parts of the brain- but just about all trans studies have small sample sizes. IMHO because no one really cares about the science behind transsexuality, and as a niche field its got all those "scientists[?]" like Bailey who won't even bother conducting studies on a good day- and oddly people like him tend to be the only ones to get the press coverage.

Edit-
BTW I believe I have some of these studies and some the articles on these studies on my computer, but I am not sure if posting full text on here would qualify as "fair use" though.

[4ever_ngt]

12 pages..??? are you fukin kidding me..I gave up after page 7..Look a Blk Bi males 2cents..."we all began as something else". & everyones journey is their own. I mean how many women here are post-op..??? less than 1% maybe..??? Yet these same women with dicks have the audacity to pass judgment like gate keepers..sad.It dosent matter what you feel your soul says...At the end of the day you can spend $100K in surgery & be the most beautiful woman this side of Norma Jean but genome dosent lie..XY...So I say get off the Judgment seat..Get off this forum & go outside & smell the gawd dayum roses..make a friend..smoke some weed for all i care...Lifes far too short to be worried bout exential bullshit beyond your control...its hard enough being transgendered as it is.. Live & let Live