Repub voter suppression machine in full swing

[NYBURBS]

HEY! I created this thread about VOTER SUPPRESSION to inform you people about this ugly threat to democracy. Please don't water it down with your bickering about other issues. There are PLENTY of threads for that. And why am I almost the only one who seems to give a shit about this outrage? The election is just days away. People are being denied their fundamental right to vote, fer chrissake.

Because it happens every 4 years like clock work, and it is engaged in by whatever party controls a particular state. So it's not that I don't find it outrageous, but it comes back to the dangers of political parties (especially a 2 party system), which most on here seem to think there is nothing wrong with.

[Cuchulain]

Because it happens every 4 years like clock work, and it is engaged in by whatever party controls a particular state. So it's not that I don't find it outrageous, but it comes back to the dangers of political parties (especially a 2 party system), which most on here seem to think there is nothing wrong with.

Greetings Comrade BURBS. Please show me some links to Dems engaging in the same massive voter suppression we're seeing from the GOP - vote caging, roll purging, disinfo fliers and calls, etc. I'd like to look into it. Certainly the national Dems don't have an injunction against them prohibiting the practice like the Rethugnicans do. I did a bit of googling and couldn't find anything but the ACORN lie. Since higher turnout usually helps Dems, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me but like all good Progressives, I like to keep an open mind.

Btw, I'd love to see an end to two party dominance, but it won't happen w/out full public funding of elections.

[NYBURBS]

Dems do engage in it, but not to the same level as the republicans. Democrats engage in it through the use of partisan decisions when they control for instance the Secretary of State position in a State. They are also quick to challenge the signatures that 3rd party candidates collect to be placed on a ballot (getting our choices removed is indeed a form of abuse toward voters).

As for the ACRON assertion, contrary to what you posted it is my understanding that even such outlets as the NYTimes are reporting that as much as 1/3 of the newly "enrolled" voters submitted by ACORN may be improper or fraudulent. That is rather massive and is really the other side of this coin. The republicans try to get people that might vote democratic beaten off the voter rolls. Democrats place all sorts of fraudulent voters onto the rolls, and both parties actively go after 3rd party candidates in an effort to prevent their placement on the ballot.

I know you have argued that these people never get to vote anyways (the fraudulent submissions) but that argument tends to defy basic logic. If it did not effect the outcome of elections then it would not have been engaged in throughout the years, and strict laws forbidding it would not have been codified. Certainly fraudulent votes will not swing a State such a NY (solidly one party) but in some of these battleground states it could make a difference.

PS- The NYTIMES article I refer to can be found here http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/24/us...s/24acorn.html

PPS- I will look up some more stuff when I get back home from class. Especially about my assertions dealing with various Secretaries of State.

[Cuchulain]

They are also quick to challenge the signatures that 3rd party candidates

Dems did challenge sigs for Ralph Nader. That's not voter suppression. It doesn't prevent anyone from voting.

Re ACORN, you're talking about the 30% of their registrations 'rejected by election officials for a variety of reasons, including duplicate registrations, incomplete forms and fraudulent submissions from low-paid field workers trying to please their supervisors'. It's much ado about nothing. Lazy $8/hr temps filling out phony forms or trying to register (knowingly or not) voters already registered is not vote suppression (btw, Repub voter registration organizations have the same problems - some have even been accused of throwing out Dem forms, by their own workers). Same for registrations rejected by election officials because they were incomplete. Many forms are rejected because of typos, misspelling or even an apostrophe that doesn't match data in state records. The Help America Vote Act was crafted by the (then) Republican Congressional majority to disenfranchise new voters. It's Jim Crowe all over again.

I know you have argued that these people never get to vote anyways (the fraudulent submissions) but that argument tends to defy basic logic.

No. Mickey Mouse will not be voting and nobody else will be voting more than once.
'Fraud by individual voters is both irrational and extremely rare. Most citizens who take the time to vote offer their legitimate signatures and sworn oaths with the gravitas that this hard-won civic right deserves. Even for the few who view voting merely as a means to an end, however, voter fraud is a singularly foolish way to attempt to win an election. Each act of voter fraud risks five years in prison and a $10,000 fine - but yields at most one incremental vote. The single vote is simply not worth the price.

Because voter fraud is essentially irrational, it is not surprising that no credible evidence suggests a voter fraud epidemic. There is no documented wave or trend of individuals voting multiple times, voting as someone else, or voting despite knowing that they are ineligible. Indeed, evidence from the microscopically scrutinized 2004 gubernatorial election in Washington State actually reveals just the opposite: though voter fraud does happen, it happens approximately 0.0009% of the time. The similarly closely-analyzed 2004 election in Ohio revealed a voter fraud rate of 0.00004%. National Weather Service data shows that Americans are struck and killed by lightning about as often.' http://www.brennancenter.org/content...t_voter_fraud/

There's a lot more on the Brennan Center site. It debunks the whole vote fraud argument. The Repubs are, and have been, engaging in massive voter suppression, which is a much bigger issue. The Dems have not - not because they are angels, but because higher turnout benefits Dems.

I'll wait to see if you can find any Dem SoS who are as crooked as Katherine Harris or Ken Black.

[NYBURBS]

Dems did challenge sigs for Ralph Nader. That's not voter suppression. It doesn't prevent anyone from voting.

That is voter choice suppression and is just as evil as voter suppression. The republicans are moving toward suppressing groups of people that lean democrat. Both parties are engaged in activity meant to "disenfranchise" whole swaths of people that are interested in 3rd party candidates. It is no different and no less evil than what you complain about.

Your writing off the part about election officials rejecting 1/3 of the applications does a disservice to the rest of your argument. Failing to acknowledge this abuse only energizes others that might seek to condone the actions of the republican party.

Btw I have been to the Brennan Center site and read some of their materials. They make some convincing assertions, yet they are also named after one of the most liberal justices in the history of the US Supreme Court, so I do wonder about a possible agenda. Your assertion about something being irrational doesn't quite cut it for me. It is irrational to rob a bank, get a couple of thousand dollars, and then face almost certain capture and conviction in federal court. Yet many people do it all the time. Some people simply do not properly weigh what is appropriate/rational and what is not. They are examples of the weak creatures that Darwin referred to in his theory on natural selection

As I stated earlier, I will do some further research and look for examples to back up my assertions. I'm just getting home, so by tomorrow I should have some additional articles.

[Cuchulain]

Comrade BURBS, here's my original question to you: Please show me some links to Dems engaging in the same massive voter suppression we're seeing from the GOP - vote caging, roll purging, disinfo fliers and calls, etc.

The reason I asked about vote suppression and not vote fraud or registration fraud is because suppression is a much bigger issue. Vote fraud is just that - one vote at a time. Registration fraud is the deliberate attempt to register someone who isn't legally qualified to vote or to register someone under a fake identity. If the system works, that reg is never accepted by election officials. I'll get back to this in a bit.

Regardless of how you or I feel about it (and I've stated in other posts that I am a big Nader fan), challenging his sigs is NOT voter suppression. I see your point of view, but I disagree with it. I remind you that ppl can always write him in - or has it gotten so bad in some parts of the country that write-ins are no longer allowed there? Aren't you going to write in Ron Paul?

Your writing off the part about election officials rejecting 1/3 of the applications does a disservice to the rest of your argument. Failing to acknowledge this abuse only energizes others that might seek to condone the actions of the republican party

Think it through. There will always be some registrations that get rejected, regardless of the politics of the group doing the registration drive; some for good reasons, some not. Donald Duck is not supposed to make it through the system. ACORN flags these phonies, fires the person who turned them in and reports the person to the authorities. What more can be expected from them? Voter reg groups MUST pass along ALL completed forms they receive to election officials. However, if a realistic name is attached to a phony address, ACORN has no way of knowing. The state must decide if the reg is valid. ACORN is being attacked for purely political reasons. On the other hand, if someone is rejected simply because of a typo or an apostrophe, when all the other info matches, that's either careless legislation or deliberate voter suppression.

Your comment about "one of the most liberal justices in the history of the US Supreme Court" does YOU a disservice. Supporting the right to vote should not be a partisan matter.

You saw the figures on voter fraud. Go and find how many cases have been brought in the US. It's virtually nonexistent and would be impossible on a scale that would affect an election. Karl Rove had 9 DOJ attorneys fired because they couldn't find any voter fraud to prosecute. Check out previous statements/links to David Eglasias. The cries of vote fraud are just a cover for vote suppression.