Look out Democrats

[trish]

Real world pressures are not exclusively military. Neither are they exclusive negative. The threat of economic sanctions and the promise of economic incentives is just one example. Even military threat or the promise to remove a military threat and something that one can put on the discussion table. Diplomacy IS the application of real world pressures, tensions and incentives. To unilaterally sanction a State and not even discuss the possibility of that action prior to its application seems, if not counter-productive, at least woefully inefficient. What? Are we all cave men who can only grunt?

So did Obama have a "pow-wow" with gangs in Chicago. You must know something the rest of us don't. Of course if he didn't, your "point" about there being gun crime in Chicago despite his sensible talk, is simply hot air.

[Stoked]

[quote your "point" about there being gun crime in Chicago despite his sensible talk, is simply hot air.[/quote]

Why? The criminals and gangs STILL have and use guns despite the gun ban. There has been plenty of talking and pontificating about guns in Chicago, now they are banned... why didnt talking as yodajazz proclaims, work the criminals and gangs regarding guns, and for that matter, crime in general?

yodajazz says
" But the issue that caught my attention was when I heard him(Obama) say he would talk with our ‘enemies’. That sound sensible "

Evil is as evil does...

[Realgirls4me]

Its time to grow out of your utopian ideas... evil is as evil does. It doesnt play by any rules, it does what it wants.

The most glaring example of practicing this is the current moron-in-charge in the White House with his illegal, immoral, unwarranted, costly attack and occupation of a sovereign nation that had did nothing to this one. Yep, pure evil at its best.

[evilernie]

It's because of religion that the world is so messed up. There is NO EVIL and in consequence, there is NO GOOD, either. Just humanity.

Greed ans intolerance are the root of all "evil". Treat your enemies as Jesus did. Maybe they'll realize that being neighborly is not too bad after all.

[tsafficianado]

Question for Trish, others who have real insight welcome to reply:

Is there any constitutional basis (valid or not) that precludes secession by any state from the United States?

[trish]

And why is that a question for me in particular? It's irrelevant to the rather trivial observation that constitutional or not, it's not very American to harbor a desire to secede from America. If Obama had spoken to a secessionist convention, I know you assholes would be all over him...so cut the hypocrisy.

[tsafficianado]

Why so defensive Trish?
Please note it was addressed to you, others.
You brought up the subject of secession on this thread.
I have always perceived you as pretty bright and knowledgeable in many areas including Constitutional matters and thought you might know the answer.
It was just a question, a matter of personal curiosity not particularly related to the current Presidential race or the particulars of this thread.
As far as your comment that advocating secession is not very 'American'....was the colonial effort to secede from Great Britain also not 'American'?
I have always held you in reasonably high regard, the asshole remark garners you a couple of demerits.

[PapaGrande]

And why is that a question for me in particular? It's irrelevant to the rather trivial observation that constitutional or not, it's not very American to harbor a desire to secede from America. If Obama had spoken to a secessionist convention, I know you assholes would be all over him...so cut the hypocrisy.

Why is it "unamerican", IMO rejection of an abusive government is very much part of our American tradition. It was understood by the States at the time of the ratification of the constitution that they could back out if they decided it was no longer in their interest. I believe 2-3 states had that spelled out specially when they agreed to join, I would have to go look up what ones again. Anyway, even if you believe that once the States joined the union they are bound by the Constitution to always be a part of it, there is nothing unethical about secession. I think some of you are stuck with the stereotype of a redneck with a confederate flag in the back window of his pick em up truck.

If you really want to educate yourself on secession on an ethical/philosophical level I can suggest this great book:
http://www.amazon.com/Secession-Stat.../dp/1560003626

Another thing to put some of this in perspective is that in the 1700s a "State" meant a sovereign nation, not like we think of states today. This was intended to be a unions of 13 sovereign nations under a federal government that was small and had very limited power and function.

I would be far more interested in Obama if he wanted to secede from America, although given his ideas on wealth redistribution it probably wouldn't be a place I would want to live in.

[yodajazz]

your "point" about there being gun crime in Chicago despite his sensible talk, is simply hot air.

Why? The criminals and gangs STILL have and use guns despite the gun ban. There has been plenty of talking and pontificating about guns in Chicago, now they are banned... why didnt talking as yodajazz proclaims, work the criminals and gangs regarding guns, and for that matter, crime in general?

yodajazz says
" But the issue that caught my attention was when I heard him(Obama) say he would talk with our ‘enemies’. That sound sensible "

Evil is as evil does...

Talking is done before the guns are drawn. And speaking of gang violence, there is actually less today, because major gangs held a summit and called a truce. This was some years ago. There is still violence from smaller unaffiliated gangs, but it is less overall. It is my understanding violent crimes are down. Jail is only a partial answer, because gangs can just continue the war in jail and export the ideas to their brothers on the streets. Major gangs have even been run from jail. I think that you think I mean not to be people in jail, when I say things like this. This is not the case. I am saying jail is not the only way to lower the crime rate.

Obama not talking about not using military action at all, he’s just saying that talking would be used more prominently. Funny now the Bush administration blasted Obama for saying that he would negotiate with Iran, then turned around and did it themselves. All wars end by talking, even if it is just to surrender. But sometimes they just agree to end the hostilities, like between Iran and Iraq. All the weapons of death including poison gas were used, but it ended with negotiation (talking).

Nobody is saying, that negotiation is going end all problems or violence, but it is an important tool that has been under used. It can help change the odds as some potential enemies are neutralized and also encourage allies to join you.

I remember hearing on the news the President of Iran had written Bush a 30 page letter. At the time they reported that the Bush Adminstration didn't think much of the letter. And I believe their position at the time meet our demands and then we'll talk. I don't know what he said, of course, but I think a smart course would have been to use his words as a point to negotiate. Use his words to find points of agreement, and also seek concessions.

[yodajazz]

It's because of religion that the world is so messed up. There is NO EVIL and in consequence, there is NO GOOD, either. Just humanity.

Greed ans intolerance are the root of all "evil". Treat your enemies as Jesus did. Maybe they'll realize that being neighborly is not too bad after all.

How come you call yourself "Evil Ernie"? Actually I don't believe much in 'evil' because the concept is often given too much power. I prefer to think of things mostly as errors in thinking. So the solutions are to adjust errors in a thought process.

When Bush called Iran one of the "Axis of evil", I think that was a mistake, unless he was building a case for war. I heard that the young people of Iran are not that crazy about the old religious heads. I would have tried to exploit thier differences culturally, like trying send Justin Timberlake to do a concert, etc. Instead, painting Iran as evil with a broad brush gives the Iranian leadership more power by exploiting fear from the threats of the US.