Are TG's by nature Anti-Feminists?

[Stoked]

Sex work has nothing to do with being a feminist.

I think that for some (myself included) it does. Especially for the feminists who are part of the fight to make sex work safer, end sex trafficking, provide contraception and testing etc... it does. I believe (not speaking for everyone) that supporting independent escorts, creating legal protection for whores is feminist.

The fight for women to have control over their bodies is in my mind intricately linked to the right to have sex with whom we want (as long as they are consenting adults) for whatever reason we want.

As for TS not being feminist, well that is the argument that the old school lesbian separatists at the Michigan Wymmins Music Festival have used and they have been fought by a large coaliton of trans women outside the festival and lesbian GG supporters within. If the most radical element of the feminist movement (the man hating lesbian seperatist wing) is now largely comprised of trans allies, than it is safe to say than those seeking to criticize us are a dying breed.

Are there some TS that are misogynist and anti-feminist? Absolutely. Is the sex industry often in the same boat? Absolutely. Does that mean that TS sex workers as a group are not feminist? Not at all.

my point was never TG specific, but the debasing and exploitation of women (of any chromosomal mix), through prostitution and objectification and to that extent, that makes women who engage in those practices anti feminists, according the tenets of most feminist factions. It may not be your view, or Allanahs, and it may not be the most "current", (which does not mean the most accepted for of feminism) but it is nevertheless relevant.

[Stoked]

So what are you saying... people such as myself shouldnt try to change the views of my party to support LGBT? Are you serious?

I ASK AGAIN
What have you done for this community, except support and be part of a political party that wants policies to harm us?

Stop avoidinf the issues. Own up to your hypocritical stance.

Ahh, my old friend Bravefart... oops, yet another spelling mistake...

Still stalking me I see.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

So what are you saying... people such as myself shouldnt try to change the views of my party to support LGBT? Are you serious?

I ASK AGAIN
What have you done for this community, except support and be part of a political party that wants policies to harm us?

Stop avoidinf the issues. Own up to your hypocritical stance.

Ahh, my old friend Bravefart... oops, yet another spelling mistake...

Still stalking me I see.

Still avoiding the question.

[SarahG]

So what are you saying... people such as myself shouldnt try to change the views of my party to support LGBT? Are you serious?

I never said that. I have always said that progress for any minority depends on moderate support.

But the republican party is not moderate support when they wave the flag of their revisionist "family values" to get votes. Picking Palin was directly a signal to show that these issues are major issues for the party still.

I really don't believe she was picked for being a girl, I think she was picked simply because of her stance on reproductive rights, lgbt issues, gun ownership and others. Her having a teenage, in-high school daughter who not only kept the kid... but is getting married in response to having it, is to show all republicans in the country that Palin not only says these things- but truly believes them EVEN IN PRACTICE. It was the Mccain camp that leaked to the media that the one daughter was pregnate btw- why? Because it was a power political move. Nothing more, nothing less.

Can support come from republicans? Sure, but it requires them sending a clear & loud message to their party leaders that "hey, these attacks on lgbt issues are immoral, unethical and need to stop"- until that happens every vote for a republican is a vote for someone trying to erode what little rights we have.

The republican party does not fundamentally HAVE to be this anti-lgbt, anti-reproductive rights oriented organization. The republican party used to be the party of the progressives, the party of the north- the party of Theodore Roosevelt. They were able to reverse roles with the democrats at the start of the 19th century, it is theoretically possible for such a ideological shift to happen again (for the worse OR for the better).

Sex work has nothing to do with being a feminist.

I think that for some (myself included) it does. Especially for the feminists who are part of the fight to make sex work safer, end sex trafficking, provide contraception and testing etc... it does. I believe (not speaking for everyone) that supporting independent escorts, creating legal protection for whores is feminist.

The fight for women to have control over their bodies is in my mind intricately linked to the right to have sex with whom we want (as long as they are consenting adults) for whatever reason we want.

thank you for that paragraph I put in bold, I truly believe you are spot-on here.

Although I do have to point out that the age issue shouldn't prevent minors from impacting decisions on certain issues, at certain times/conditions outside of sexual contact. We tend to think about reproductive rights as a post-age of consent issue but it's not (if that were the case sterilizing procedures would be illegal for anyone not of the age of consent).

[foolish99]

well i am a conservative republican and I love buttplugs.
andi love shana even more.

I think that any good conservative republican would do well with getting his/her butt plugged and spend some time with allanah and shana ....

[the_corner]

Is it wrong... if... after reading all of this thread, I feel kind of attracted to Mandy?

Nothing more attractive than a beautiful intelligent girl.

[chefmike]

As you and the others have stated, the feminist movement has many views, and many rifts, so everything is open to interpretation, it all depend what perspective you take and what values you have.

HOWEVER, there are some things that hold true cross-ideologically.

I've never heard of a feminist (of any flavor) that didn't care about reproductive rights, equal pay, etc....

THUS when you get a candidate that wants to go out and solidify gender roles, and attack reproductive rights, using the gov as the tool to do so- then yes, supporting that candidate would be (among other things) anti-feminist.

Instead of trying to brand me as anti feminist, one would think having "conservatives" who accept and support the LGBT inside the conservative party, will only serve to educate others in the party who hold more antiquated conservative views towards your community.

But see here's the thing, the republicans stand for a lot of issues (without doubt) like their position on the separation of church & state (related but not specific to trans issues, again there is overlap), gun ownership, and a whole host of other things.... BUT the republican party has made LGBT issues (or rather... their attacks on lgbt rights) the cornerstone of their party for more than 6 years at this point.

THERE WAS NO ISSUE TO THEM BIGGER THAN LGBT ISSUES IN 2004. That is why 11 states, including battleground states like Ohio, got gay marriage bans. They mobilzed the christians to come out and vote, and they did it by targeting US.

So what are you saying... people such as myself shouldnt try to change the views of my party to support LGBT? Are you serious?

Jeff Gannon, is that you?

As to your question, Jeff...why don't you ask your fellow hypocrite Larry Craig...or Tom Foley...or Ted "jesus camp" Haggard?

[chefmike]

well i am a conservative republican and I love buttplugs.

If you are a conservative republican then you are a buttplug.

[Shining Star]

Don't think being a trannie automatically means the end of any possibility of having children.

Yes, hormones and various operations will render a trannie "sterile", but the way around this for a MTF is to bank her/his soldiers before undergoing any sort of treatment. IIRC, this recommendation is standard practice in many parts of Europe, not sure how each doctor who deals with trannies in the States handles the matter.

OTHO, there are a few pre-op trannies who have sired children as they are, one posted to this board on that fact.

So the issue remaining for a trannie would be the one facing infertile women, how to pay for treatments and or in this case a surrogate and possibly egg donation.

As for feminism, as other posters stated already, yes the movement is all over the place, partially because of the powerful social and economic issues that have yet to resolve themselves.

Yes, girls are now able to get the same education as boys, and by various laws cannot be kept out of colleges and universities, thus are now well represented in professions formerly dominated by men. However one just does not end up at Harvard Law School or Yale. It takes tremendous work and resources, things not always distributed equally in this world.

Also where one sees a woman's place in the world is largely shaped by one's own environment growing up. If one is the son/daughter of a middle class and above parents, both college educated and perhaps professionals, you are going to see things differently than someone growing up in the hood seeing some (not all) women using what they have to get what they need/want.

A true feminist would tell that "welfare" mother getting slapped around and or staying with a man who cheats on her and so forth, to pack her bags and move away. To the aforementioned woman, that may sound like "stupid" advice and she may even tell the feminist woman to mind her own business ( and allot of other things besides).

You see this within the trannie community where certain segments of the group will have nothing to do with the others. Remember just as there are "women" who think any use of sex and or feminine wiles to earn a living is debasing, there are also trannies who think the same thing. OTHO there are women and trannies perfectly happy using what they have (or can purchase/be made into) to get where they need to be/want.

It should be noted that historically women from "outside" the normal bourgeois circle (prostitutes, kept women, mistresses, etc), not only sided with feminist movements, but let support in terms of financial and other aid. Unlike married women, the later had the economic freedom that comes from earning their own money to do with it as they wished. Also unlike married women they were not fenced in by laws and customs that made married women the exclusive property of their husbands (which often meant there was only one position in a household, the lord and master's).

For a woman to make the same free choices as a man, she must be either free of her biology or able to control it. You see many older woman (who came of age during the first wave of feminism), at seats of power, but many of those same women are now 50 years or older, and quite often unmarried and childless. Young women today, having been told they can have it all, are finding out that simply isn't true. Nor are many willing to forsake love,marriage and children for a career. So they remain conflicted and torn. Some feminist look down at "stay at home mothers" as a relic of the pre Betty Freidan days. Housewives and mothers say, and rather justly where are all the benefits promised by the "revolution"?

Trannies to some extent can play both ends to the middle. There are girls who continue working as men, accruing all the benefits of their positions, and transform later in life. Others for various reasons (some not entirely even understood), transform at a young age, but find with limited to no employment skills, they have few if any options besides "working". A GG could always try and catch herself a husband, but that was not an option for trannies and gays until very recently.

Problem for the transgender community, is that there is no common bond between the diverse groups. Women on the other hand, be they rich, poor, educated, or dumb have one thing in common; being women. That little bit of biology means every woman has to give some thought to other women (and their children), because unless she has income of her own sufficient to provide, both she and her children can be cast down from a comfortable lifestyle simply upon the removal of her husband (by death, desertion, or divorce).

[SarahG]

Don't think being a trannie automatically means the end of any possibility of having children.

True but that doesn't change that these treatments do make people sterile.

OTHO, there are a few pre-op trannies who have sired children as they are, one posted to this board on that fact.

Every once in a blue moon i'll hear of a preop who got a gg knocked up unexpectedly assuming hrt = sterile (but hrt does not always, and not immediately cause sterility).

So the issue remaining for a trannie would be the one facing infertile women...

Not from a political standpoint, what we're talking about are the christian crazies (I say crazies because not all Christians believe this) who want to make all sterilization medicines, treatments and surgeries illegal (contraceptive, hrt, srs, orchis, etc.). Kind of a catch-22 if you think about it since this is the same political group that wants to keep single parents, gays, or trans citizens from raising kids.

Sure, GGs have the whole biological clock to think about and all GGs will eventually "go sterile" from age but we're talking about people who want control over their reproductive system, either to change it (srs) or to prevent it from working (birth control) just to name a few (this is not a complete list).

Bringing adoption into the mix...

The issues also vary somewhat in that adoption for trans citizens is openly discriminated against in many states (but then again so is being single, gay, or in a low SEC). Adopting here isn't easy, and it tends to be easiest for those "wealthy straight married white couples." Do other people adopt besides rich white married straight couples? Sure, but that doesn't mean the system treats everyone the same.

A family that 1) is married & straight, 2) has the money for surrogate mothers & fertility clinics (which, btw, the religious right also wants to shut down)* is going to be the family that will have the least odds of adoption problems. This is an oversimplification, the adoption industry (and it is an industry) has a hell of a lot of problems and its not always going to be smooth sailing even for the couple that "everyone is sympathetic to"

Yes, girls are now able to get the same education as boys, and by various laws cannot be kept out of colleges and universities, thus are now well represented in professions formerly dominated by men. However one just does not end up at Harvard Law School or Yale. It takes tremendous work and resources, things not always distributed equally in this world.

Oddly I have been seeing stats in recent years showing more girls, than guys are finishing college in America of late. However at the same time I've seen at least one study in the last year showing that guys and girls are still being paid differently.

Maybe its a sign things are going to change? I really don't know.



* The fertility clinics get a lot of people upset, even when they're "creating life" because of a whole host of things. Some people think its unethical/immoral to "play god like that" and then there are the ethical dialogs created by parents who want to use these clinics to "weed out" embryos that have genetic defects (diseases etc), or to make "designer babies" of whatever eye color, hair color, or sex that the parents want. Eugenics gets a bad rep from all the forced/nonconsensual programs governments (including the US) have tried in the past. I know if my family was known to have a nearly-always fatal genetic disease/condition that causes a very slow, painful death I'd not want to bring someone into the world who has it if it is preventable. But now I'm drifting offtopic...