Are TG's by nature Anti-Feminists?

[sexyshana]

"I bet you watched Palin's speech last night with a 10" black butt plug in your ass. "

most men we come in contact with are conservative Republicans and most LOVE butt plugs!!!
(just an observation)

[SarahG]

No, I think many TGs are feminists in that they fundamentally support the rights of women, transgender or otherwise.

A very smart and creative lady named Riftgirl runs a site here, http://beingt.blogspot.com/, that you may find illuminating.

That is probably because at the most fundamental level the two issues have a LOT of overlap.

Trans rights cannot be separated from reproductive rights. One of the most basic issues we face is this issue of sterilization (through hrt, srs, or orchis). If we are living in an ultra conservative world where sterilization is "evil and illegal" then there is no way to access these trans medical treatments for someone who is not sterile through natural means.... just as GGs have the issue of contraceptive to worry about when politics tries to address "morality."

A lot of people will go and say that prochoice means you can chose "no to abortion" and "that's what Palin did" but that's at best a fallacy. If we are in a society which cares about freedoms when it comes to people's bodies, and their medical treatments -then the patient and the patient alone dictate what can or cannot happen to them.* Thus in a world that cares about freedom someone, like Palin's pregnant daughter (who is 18 iirc), can chose whether or not to have an abortion.... but someone like Palin can't make that choice for her threw prohibitions, government intervention, and other such civil liberty violations.


* This assumes the patient can consent to such procedures, and there are things that can prohibit someone from being able to do that- like being in a coma, being legally insane, stuff like that. However even here generally speaking age is not so much of an issue, and I'd argue most sane people will agree that a 5 year old wanting to see a doctor for physicals should not be kept away from doctors strictly because their parents are of a certain christian sect that "objects to doctors" and would "rather the kid pray for his health instead"

Even a coma is not necessarily a consent problem if the patient leaves a living will documenting what they'd want to happen in the event of various contingencies (but as it currently stands not all states will hold these documents to mean anything in the courts). We usually think of this in terms of the "right to die" debate, but a version EVERYONE should be familiar with is the organ donation programs. I have been on the DMV's organ donner list since I first got my license in 2001... when I first got on it I was 16, it did not require parental permission to get on the list- it was my consensual choice (as a minor) to do so alone. This is a separate issue than right to die, however I will say that in some situations they will try to keep parts of an organ donner's body alive on life support so it does not decay while awaiting organ removal.... which makes the issues closer than they immediately appear.

I was making my medical decisions at 10- even for deciding what be done in terms of plastic surgery (that my insurance company deemed elective and would not pay for), so I don't buy that 15 year old kids can't consent to stuff like contraceptive use when their parents disagree with the idea.

[SarahG]

As you and the others have stated, the feminist movement has many views, and many rifts, so everything is open to interpretation, it all depend what perspective you take and what values you have.

HOWEVER, there are some things that hold true cross-ideologically.

I've never heard of a feminist (of any flavor) that didn't care about reproductive rights, equal pay, etc....

THUS when you get a candidate that wants to go out and solidify gender roles, and attack reproductive rights, using the gov as the tool to do so- then yes, supporting that candidate would be (among other things) anti-feminist.

Instead of trying to brand me as anti feminist, one would think having "conservatives" who accept and support the LGBT inside the conservative party, will only serve to educate others in the party who hold more antiquated conservative views towards your community.

But see here's the thing, the republicans stand for a lot of issues (without doubt) like their position on the separation of church & state (related but not specific to trans issues, again there is overlap), gun ownership, and a whole host of other things.... BUT the republican party has made LGBT issues (or rather... their attacks on lgbt rights) the cornerstone of their party for more than 6 years at this point.

THERE WAS NO ISSUE TO THEM BIGGER THAN LGBT ISSUES IN 2004. That is why 11 states, including battleground states like Ohio, got gay marriage bans. They mobilzed the christians to come out and vote, and they did it by targeting US.

[Stoked]

There are huge rifts in the "feminist community" right now and sex work is only one of the dividing issues. For leading contemporary feminist writers such as Susie Bright, Carol Queen etc.... sex work is a feminist pursuit. It so happens that the new wave of feminist theory is highly supportive of trans inclusion, high femme identity (the idea that women can be feminist and like femininity is nothing new), and sex work.

Sure the 70's feminists were anti-porn and anti-prostitution, but those voices carry little weight these days. Especially with the emergence of dyke porn rags like On Our Backs (whose longtime feminist editor Tristan Taormino now works for Vivid), the Sex Workers art tour which has been incessantly touring the US for five or six years now, and on and on....

For more on the matter I recommend checking out Unrepentant Whore by Carol Queen.

Of course, if this is just an attempt to mudsling there is little I can say.

If I wanted to mudsling I would do so openly. I stated why the thought occurred to me, it was because I was called anti-feminist for supporting a supposed anti-feminist candidate.

As you and the others have stated, the feminist movement has many views, and many rifts, so everything is open to interpretation, it all depend what perspective you take and what values you have. The "new, third, and post wave feminist movements are a few among others, all of which appear to disagree with each other to some degree.

I dont have more time at the moment to delve into this more completely, but i did want assure you, to avoid this attracting flamers, that this has nothing to do with me mudslinging.

As you are aware, we are effectively limited to two presidential choices. The election here is not any one single issue, LGBT issues are big issues for me, but not the deciding factor.

Instead of trying to brand me as anti feminist, one would think having "conservatives" who accept and support the LGBT inside the conservative party, will only serve to educate others in the party who hold more antiquated conservative views towards your community.

And not just the conservatives of the world either. Frankly, I think the TG community has larger issues of acceptance by GG's than my conservative brothers, at least that has been my experience when telling my female and male friends of my TG experiences. But that is another issue.

One thing is clear... .. as easily as I can be called anti feminist, so can the girls here... it all depends from what perspective you want to frame the issue.

OH please, take the butt plug out of your ass and wake up and smell the coffee. You are full of it.

You tried to sling the mud at me and read me- so in turn exposed you and read you for filth. Grovel all you like.

My reply had nothing to do with groveling. I was writing it before I read your post.

You have accused me of mudslinging and reading you... but that is what you did to me. You called me an anti-feminist... so I thought about it. I even looked it up to educate myself, just what is a feminist. I posted what I found. TS Mandy and others thankfully took time to add educational value, info I had not seen. So I read more. I responded to TS Mandy in a fair, thoughtful response.

Too bad that isnt enough for you.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

There are huge rifts in the "feminist community" right now and sex work is only one of the dividing issues. For leading contemporary feminist writers such as Susie Bright, Carol Queen etc.... sex work is a feminist pursuit. It so happens that the new wave of feminist theory is highly supportive of trans inclusion, high femme identity (the idea that women can be feminist and like femininity is nothing new), and sex work.

Sure the 70's feminists were anti-porn and anti-prostitution, but those voices carry little weight these days. Especially with the emergence of dyke porn rags like On Our Backs (whose longtime feminist editor Tristan Taormino now works for Vivid), the Sex Workers art tour which has been incessantly touring the US for five or six years now, and on and on....

For more on the matter I recommend checking out Unrepentant Whore by Carol Queen.

Of course, if this is just an attempt to mudsling there is little I can say.

If I wanted to mudsling I would do so openly. I stated why the thought occurred to me, it was because I was called anti-feminist for supporting a supposed anti-feminist candidate.

As you and the others have stated, the feminist movement has many views, and many rifts, so everything is open to interpretation, it all depend what perspective you take and what values you have. The "new, third, and post wave feminist movements are a few among others, all of which appear to disagree with each other to some degree.

I dont have more time at the moment to delve into this more completely, but i did want assure you, to avoid this attracting flamers, that this has nothing to do with me mudslinging.

As you are aware, we are effectively limited to two presidential choices. The election here is not any one single issue, LGBT issues are big issues for me, but not the deciding factor.

Instead of trying to brand me as anti feminist, one would think having "conservatives" who accept and support the LGBT inside the conservative party, will only serve to educate others in the party who hold more antiquated conservative views towards your community.

And not just the conservatives of the world either. Frankly, I think the TG community has larger issues of acceptance by GG's than my conservative brothers, at least that has been my experience when telling my female and male friends of my TG experiences. But that is another issue.

One thing is clear... .. as easily as I can be called anti feminist, so can the girls here... it all depends from what perspective you want to frame the issue.

OH please, take the butt plug out of your ass and wake up and smell the coffee. You are full of it.

You tried to sling the mud at me and read me- so in turn exposed you and read you for filth. Grovel all you like.

My reply had nothing to do with groveling. I was writing it before I read your post.

You have accused me of mudslinging and reading you... but that is what you did to me. You called me an anti-feminist... so I thought about it. I even looked it up to educate myself, just what is a feminist. I posted what I found. TS Mandy and others thankfully took time to add educational value, info I had not seen. So I read more. I responded to TS Mandy in a fair, thoughtful response.

Too bad that isnt enough for you.

I actually called you MUCH more than an anti-feminist, all points you hace chosen not to address- yet I addressed yours.

As part of your misinformation. my friend Shana did remind me of Verorina Fancro, whom I have over looked. She was a 16th century courtesan and poet was considered one of the first feminist.

Sex work has nothing to do with being a feminist.

[Stoked]

"I bet you watched Palin's speech last night with a 10" black butt plug in your ass. "

most men we come in contact with are conservative Republicans and most LOVE butt plugs!!!
(just an observation)

Hey now... I, and my conservative brothers were just chastised for doing nothing to support the TG community... and here you are stating that most of your "contacts" are conservative republicans...

Geeze, which is it, are we supporting you or not? And dont tell me we're in the closet any more than your liberal "contacts" At least we support you with our cash rather than looking for freebies or lip service

[AllanahStarrNYC]

"I bet you watched Palin's speech last night with a 10" black butt plug in your ass. "

most men we come in contact with are conservative Republicans and most LOVE butt plugs!!!
(just an observation)

Hey now... I, and my conservative brothers were just chastised for doing nothing to support the TG community... and here you are stating that most of your "contacts" are conservative republicans...

Geeze, which is it, are we supporting you or not? And dont tell me we're in the closet any more than your liberal "contacts" At least we support you with our cash rather than looking for freebies or lip service

I ASK AGAIN
What have you done for this community, except support and be part of a political party that wants policies to harm us?

Stop avoidinf the issues. Own up to your hypocritical stance.

[Stoked]

As you and the others have stated, the feminist movement has many views, and many rifts, so everything is open to interpretation, it all depend what perspective you take and what values you have.

HOWEVER, there are some things that hold true cross-ideologically.

I've never heard of a feminist (of any flavor) that didn't care about reproductive rights, equal pay, etc....

THUS when you get a candidate that wants to go out and solidify gender roles, and attack reproductive rights, using the gov as the tool to do so- then yes, supporting that candidate would be (among other things) anti-feminist.

Instead of trying to brand me as anti feminist, one would think having "conservatives" who accept and support the LGBT inside the conservative party, will only serve to educate others in the party who hold more antiquated conservative views towards your community.

But see here's the thing, the republicans stand for a lot of issues (without doubt) like their position on the separation of church & state (related but not specific to trans issues, again there is overlap), gun ownership, and a whole host of other things.... BUT the republican party has made LGBT issues (or rather... their attacks on lgbt rights) the cornerstone of their party for more than 6 years at this point.

THERE WAS NO ISSUE TO THEM BIGGER THAN LGBT ISSUES IN 2004. That is why 11 states, including battleground states like Ohio, got gay marriage bans. They mobilzed the christians to come out and vote, and they did it by targeting US.

So what are you saying... people such as myself shouldnt try to change the views of my party to support LGBT? Are you serious?

[tsmandy]

Sex work has nothing to do with being a feminist.

I think that for some (myself included) it does. Especially for the feminists who are part of the fight to make sex work safer, end sex trafficking, provide contraception and testing etc... it does. I believe (not speaking for everyone) that supporting independent escorts, creating legal protection for whores is feminist.

The fight for women to have control over their bodies is in my mind intricately linked to the right to have sex with whom we want (as long as they are consenting adults) for whatever reason we want.

As for TS not being feminist, well that is the argument that the old school lesbian separatists at the Michigan Wymmins Music Festival have used and they have been fought by a large coaliton of trans women outside the festival and lesbian GG supporters within. If the most radical element of the feminist movement (the man hating lesbian seperatist wing) is now largely comprised of trans allies, than it is safe to say than those seeking to criticize us are a dying breed.

Are there some TS that are misogynist and anti-feminist? Absolutely. Is the sex industry often in the same boat? Absolutely. Does that mean that TS sex workers as a group are not feminist? Not at all.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

Sex work has nothing to do with being a feminist.

I think that for some (myself included) it does. Especially for the feminists who are part of the fight to make sex work safer, end sex trafficking, provide contraception and testing etc... it does. I believe (not speaking for everyone) that supporting independent escorts, creating legal protection for whores is feminist.

The fight for women to have control over their bodies is in my mind intricately linked to the right to have sex with whom we want (as long as they are consenting adults) for whatever reason we want.

As for TS not being feminist, well that is the argument that the old school lesbian separatists at the Michigan Wymmins Music Festival have used and they have been fought by a large coaliton of trans women outside the festival and lesbian GG supporters within. If the most radical element of the feminist movement (the man hating lesbian seperatist wing) is now largely comprised of trans allies, than it is safe to say than those seeking to criticize us are a dying breed.

Are there some TS that are misogynist and anti-feminist? Absolutely. Is the sex industry often in the same boat? Absolutely. Does that mean that TS sex workers as a group are not feminist? Not at all.

What I meant was that, you can be a feminist and be a sex worker-
opposing the argument that Stoked originally posed.