Are TG's by nature Anti-Feminists?

[Stoked]

yesterday, Allanah accused me of supporting an "Anti-feminist" candidate for President... calling me a hypocrite.

Well, that got me thinking about TG's, ... since most it seems, at least on this board, are "working girls". I looked up feminism and prostitution I found out there are 5 major types of feminism, most of which, except for Liberal Feminism, believe prostitution "perpetuates and reinforces the objectification, subordination and exploitation of women. "
http://www.feministissues.com/index.html

Speaking of objectification,

"Feminist scholars say that the objectification of women involves disregarding personal and intellectual abilities and capabilities, and women's reduction to instruments of sexual pleasure for men Examples of phenomena seen by some feminists as objectifying women include depictions of women in advertising and media, images of women in pornography, as well as images in more mainstream media such as advertising and art, stripping and prostitution, men evaluating women sexually in public spaces, and cosmetic surgery, particularly breast enlargement."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_objectification

.... I think all of us are attracted by some degree to the girls here because of their hyper-femininity. In most cases they act more feminine than most GG's we know. They work very hard and spend a lot of money to look the way they do(thank god). But because they do, they become the embodiment of objectification.

So... Allanah, I do not know wether you are a "working girl", but I have heard you speak about your addiction to cosmetic surgery... to make yourself as beautiful as possible(paraphrase). Doesnt that, and your exploitation of TG's through your website and TG parties, and the desire to become as feminine as possible make you and many of the women here anti-feminist by default?

So I submit, Allanah is the hypocrite she has accused me of being, by going against the most basic tenets of feminism.

[SarahG]

Well, that got me thinking about TG's, ... since most it seems, at least on this board, are "working girls". I looked up feminism and prostitution I found out there are 5 major types of feminism, most of which, except for Liberal Feminism, believe prostitution "perpetuates and reinforces the objectification, subordination and exploitation of women. "
http://www.feministissues.com/index.html
.

Like with GGs it really depends on what crowd you're talking to/with. Here I'd say most girls don't see anything wrong with prostitution or adult entertainment however I would HARDLY say that is true all across the trans community.

My observation- which can be entirely wrong for all I know, is that the field is not seen in a good light within most of the trans support groups.

The issue is further muddied by the fact that certain flavors of feminism, like some of the older feminists, hate trans girls with a big passion because their philosophies don't know how to contend with transsexuality if "there are no biological differences between a man and a women.".... er, that didn't come out right because I seriously doubt anyone believes dna, reproductive systems, and brain structures are cross-gender consistent. Its more like for the most part there are no differences, and the ones that do exist don't translate into lifestyle, ideological, or otherwise notable differences from a societal perspective.

See the (er, one of) big issues here is that trans people (talking mtf obviously) say they're born mentally female, and that BECAUSE of that they need to transition in order to have a decent quality of life because these differences DO translate into tangible, real characteristics specific to either females. It would not be hard at all to find trans girls who have stories from their early childhood showing that even at their earliest memorable times, they "had the wrong mannerisms" for a guy, talked the "wrong way" stuff like that.... and claim biological (nature, not nurture) as the cause. I can't speak for anyone else but I know in my childhood I certainly had a lot of problems in k-12 from that, I'd have classmates, sometimes even teachers interrupt class to point out how I was sitting at times (yes, girls and guys sometimes sit differently), getting in/out of cars differently, stuff like that. And the whole transitioning thing, to some feminists, makes them think that we're basically saying that these differences cause having a "lifestyle" they say is totally sociologically inflicted (like wearing female specific clothes as a single example- yes I know there is more to transitioning than clothes but its the easiest example to draw upon, I am sure somewhere, out there- there is an old school feminist who flinches everytime they realize there are tgirls that wear skirts more than pants on a day to day basis).

My view, not that it really matters in this thread, is that there are real notable differences between guys and girls. It isn't hard to show brain use varies in performing tasks based on gender. But at the end of the day for most issues this is an irrelevant sidetrack, it really doesn't matter which side of the brain someone is using to do a given task, the bigger issue is that they can do the given task. The real issue, from a ts perspective, has nothing to do with those types of differences, it is about body dysphoria. Body dysphoria manifests itself in many, many ways. A lot of trans critics will try to see it as the same as ggs who think "they're tits are too small" but that is an oversimplification. Although I freely and regularly admit that with trans girls, we have all the insecurities that GGs have about their body PLUS all the ones that come from ts and a good chunk of that probably is (to a point) societal caused (like when it manifests itself in eating disorders- in either direction). But not all body dysphoria is like that, I can't say if my experience in this is unique, but until I had been on hrt for a couple years or so I couldn't recognize myself in mirrors or photographs

Then TVs come off as "unpleasant" to some because they're (not saying this is my view) seen as objectifying women and perpetuating gender stereotypes. I guess they see tvs as trying to stick to stereotypically female portrayals with their fetish, like (again not saying this is my view)* using fetish maid costumes, whatever. It would not be hard to find feminist essays finding these tv stereotypes offensive, and I've read at least one essay in the past from a feminist who IIRC was married to a tv and all upset that they would go overboard with the feminine stereotypes like, when (and only when) cding going and finding "cute things to gawk at" (as in stuff like puppies, not talking about sexual gawking).

This tension is re-enforced by the older feminists (older in philosophy, not talking about the person's age) who are almost (if not) as vocal in their distaste for us as the christian fundamentalists. When the trans bashing starts in lgbt circles, especially if its something publicly visible- it's almost always a "lumberjack lesbian" as other threads here have also observed. There is a reason why not all LGB groups have added the T to become LGBT groups. Even to this day philosophies that can't coupe with transgender issues deal with it by exclusion.

It does seem that trans activists are more likely to be feminists (often with the newer "wave" ideologies), to the point where its rare I see one who doesn't claim such a view. There's even tension in the community between those in adult entertainment and those that claim to be fulltime trans activists (try searching about this on the forum, it wouldn't be hard to find girls here stereotyping the activist, support group crowd as whiners who can't ever get laid and are always three emo steps from hurting themselves- again not my view).

In any case, I would almost even say there are as many self proclaimed trans feminists out there as there are trans sex workers. But like GGs, if you went looking I am sure you could find someone who is trans who meets any given ideology (and like GGs, some would be harder to find than others).



* For the record, I usually do not use disclaimers in my casual or formal writing EXCEPT when dealing to trans issues. But for some strange reason, whenever I talk about trans politics, theory or anything along those lines- if I don't use disclaimers there will always be a trans girl (this tends to be worse in the support groups) who will try to argue I'm saying something I'm not. It could be "I like potato chips" randomly in a post and someone will take offense to it and try to argue that I am ideologically wrong and need to be corrected before it does damage to the community . The closer I get to issues involving TVs, older transitioners, or feminism the more likely someone will take what I am saying the wrong way (maybe even intentionally).

[BlackMath]

The majority of the women on this board, from what I can gather through how they portray themselves, are post-feminists.

If you don't know what that is, a noobies example is Madonna. In that she used her sexuality as power over men. Rather than cutting all her hair off and wearing big hiking boots and shit like a 70's feminist, she used her embrace her femininity and sexuality and used it to her advantage.

[tsmandy]

There are huge rifts in the "feminist community" right now and sex work is only one of the dividing issues. For leading contemporary feminist writers such as Susie Bright, Carol Queen etc.... sex work is a feminist pursuit. It so happens that the new wave of feminist theory is highly supportive of trans inclusion, high femme identity (the idea that women can be feminist and like femininity is nothing new), and sex work.

Sure the 70's feminists were anti-porn and anti-prostitution, but those voices carry little weight these days. Especially with the emergence of dyke porn rags like On Our Backs (whose longtime feminist editor Tristan Taormino now works for Vivid), the Sex Workers art tour which has been incessantly touring the US for five or six years now, and on and on....

For more on the matter I recommend checking out Unrepentant Whore by Carol Queen.

Of course, if this is just an attempt to mudsling there is little I can say.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

yesterday, Allanah accused me of supporting an "Anti-feminist" candidate for President... calling me a hypocrite.

Well, that got me thinking about TG's, ... since most it seems, at least on this board, are "working girls". I looked up feminism and prostitution I found out there are 5 major types of feminism, most of which, except for Liberal Feminism, believe prostitution "perpetuates and reinforces the objectification, subordination and exploitation of women. "
http://www.feministissues.com/index.html

Speaking of objectification,

"Feminist scholars say that the objectification of women involves disregarding personal and intellectual abilities and capabilities, and women's reduction to instruments of sexual pleasure for men Examples of phenomena seen by some feminists as objectifying women include depictions of women in advertising and media, images of women in pornography, as well as images in more mainstream media such as advertising and art, stripping and prostitution, men evaluating women sexually in public spaces, and cosmetic surgery, particularly breast enlargement."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_objectification

.... I think all of us are attracted by some degree to the girls here because of their hyper-femininity. In most cases they act more feminine than most GG's we know. They work very hard and spend a lot of money to look the way they do(thank god). But because they do, they become the embodiment of objectification.

So... Allanah, I do not know wether you are a "working girl", but I have heard you speak about your addiction to cosmetic surgery... to make yourself as beautiful as possible(paraphrase). Doesnt that, and your exploitation of TG's through your website and TG parties, and the desire to become as feminine as possible make you and many of the women here anti-feminist by default?

So I submit, Allanah is the hypocrite she has accused me of being, by going against the most basic tenets of feminism.

Let me explain something to you- I am a feminist because I believe in equal rights for women, equal pay for women, the ERA, and I am pro choice.

I have exploited my body, my looks, my career on MY terms. My desire for plastic surgery or my appearance HAS NOTHING TO DO with being more attractive to men. If you really read or knew anythign about me, you would know that I have modeled my looks after my symbols of beauty and my beauty icons. The way I look is a matter of my personal expression. I have never conformed to any beauty ideal.

In fact, a lot of men criticize me for my surgical choices and many say I have gone too far. I HAVE NEVER ONCE ASKED A MAN, OR CONSIDERED A MAN'S (OR ANYONE'S OPINIOn for that matter) on my surgical choices.
I do what I want with my body, because it is MY body. As Cher once said, "if I want to put tits on my back, it's no one's business but my own".

Your attack on me through this post is just a way of running from the REAL issues of your political ideals.

LET US SEE:

You again are supporting a woman/party that is anti -gay, anti transgender, anti equal rights, anti pornography, YET you are on this board.

YOU ARE PART OF THE REPUBLICAN HYPOCROSY. You are the Palin's who are agaisnt sex education in schools yet end up with preagnant teenage daughters. YOU ARE THE MARK FOLLEY'S THE TED HAGGARD'S
that are are anti gay, vote agaisnt gay and trans rights, PREACH SODDOM AND GAMORRAH YET ARE FAGS.

I bet you watched Palin's speech last night with a 10" black butt plug in your ass.

SO when you want to address your hyprocrosy- then you come talk to me.

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR FOR THIS COMMUNITY EXCEPT SUPPORT PEOPLE THAT WANT TO HURT US?

When I was denied entrance to a gay club in Manhattan, I sued with the help of the transgender legal defense fund along with another ts and gg plaintiff and WON. They changed their policies and donated a large contribution to an AIDS charity.

I have always stood up and fought for my rights as a trans woman and for ALL WOMEN.

But I guess an in the closet (WHITE?) male , who makes more on the dollar than a woman does, who has more rights and privelages than trans or gay people have, someone who does not have to face job nor housing discrimation because if their gender expression would know nothing about that.

Get out of your closet darling.

[chefmike]

McSame and Palin would like to end a women's right to choose, as well as abolish many other personal freedoms that progressives have fought so hard to achieve in the US. They epitomize everything that is dangerous about the GOP and the Religious Wrong.

[elvis_p]

"Are TG's by nature Anti-Feminists?"

No, many, most, of the TGs I know are feminists in that they fundamentally support the rights of women, transgender or otherwise.

Your assertion that "most [TGs] it seems, at least on this board, are "working girls" is strikingly out of touch. I wonder what your in-the-real-world experience is with TG women. Is it erotically oriented message boards and porn?

Most of the ladies I have met over the years are educated, some very deeply, and represent very diverse professions: lawyers (one friend is both a former Judge in NYC and Navy pilot), a bank vice president, high-level information technology consultants, computer scientists and business owners.

To even hedge on whether or not Allanah is a 'working girl', and to only focus on this one point, reeks of bias: she strikes me more as a business woman, entertainer, promoter, even activist. When you embrace only the idea of 'working girl', you end up telling us far about youself than you do about any of the women here.

"They work very hard and spend a lot of money to look the way they do(thank god). But because they do, they become the embodiment of objectification."

Ack, so objectification is the ONLY goal or the ONLY result? Again, what I think is your inexperience with TG women is coming through loud and clear here. For TGs, men or women, cosmetic surgery is absolutely required as a part of their transition. Certainly not in every single case, but lets be real. To believe that a lady who has had cosmetic surgery "become[s] the embodiment of objectification" is, again, strikingly out of touch and further illuminates your ignorance of someone who is undertaking a change of their gender.

[Stoked]

There are huge rifts in the "feminist community" right now and sex work is only one of the dividing issues. For leading contemporary feminist writers such as Susie Bright, Carol Queen etc.... sex work is a feminist pursuit. It so happens that the new wave of feminist theory is highly supportive of trans inclusion, high femme identity (the idea that women can be feminist and like femininity is nothing new), and sex work.

Sure the 70's feminists were anti-porn and anti-prostitution, but those voices carry little weight these days. Especially with the emergence of dyke porn rags like On Our Backs (whose longtime feminist editor Tristan Taormino now works for Vivid), the Sex Workers art tour which has been incessantly touring the US for five or six years now, and on and on....

For more on the matter I recommend checking out Unrepentant Whore by Carol Queen.

Of course, if this is just an attempt to mudsling there is little I can say.

If I wanted to mudsling I would do so openly. I stated why the thought occurred to me, it was because I was called anti-feminist for supporting a supposed anti-feminist candidate.

As you and the others have stated, the feminist movement has many views, and many rifts, so everything is open to interpretation, it all depend what perspective you take and what values you have. The "new, third, and post wave feminist movements are a few among others, all of which appear to disagree with each other to some degree.

I dont have more time at the moment to delve into this more completely, but i did want assure you, to avoid this attracting flamers, that this has nothing to do with me mudslinging.

As you are aware, we are effectively limited to two presidential choices. The election here is not any one single issue, LGBT issues are big issues for me, but not the deciding factor.

Instead of trying to brand me as anti feminist, one would think having "conservatives" who accept and support the LGBT inside the conservative party, will only serve to educate others in the party who hold more antiquated conservative views towards your community.

And not just the conservatives of the world either. Frankly, I think the TG community has larger issues of acceptance by GG's than my conservative brothers, at least that has been my experience when telling my female and male friends of my TG experiences. But that is another issue.

One thing is clear... .. as easily as I can be called anti feminist, so can the girls here... it all depends from what perspective you want to frame the issue.

[Stoked]

There are huge rifts in the "feminist community" right now and sex work is only one of the dividing issues. For leading contemporary feminist writers such as Susie Bright, Carol Queen etc.... sex work is a feminist pursuit. It so happens that the new wave of feminist theory is highly supportive of trans inclusion, high femme identity (the idea that women can be feminist and like femininity is nothing new), and sex work.

Sure the 70's feminists were anti-porn and anti-prostitution, but those voices carry little weight these days. Especially with the emergence of dyke porn rags like On Our Backs (whose longtime feminist editor Tristan Taormino now works for Vivid), the Sex Workers art tour which has been incessantly touring the US for five or six years now, and on and on....

For more on the matter I recommend checking out Unrepentant Whore by Carol Queen.

Of course, if this is just an attempt to mudsling there is little I can say.

If I wanted to mudsling I would do so openly. I stated why the thought occurred to me, it was because I was called anti-feminist for supporting a supposed anti-feminist candidate.

As you and the others have stated, the feminist movement has many views, and many rifts, so everything is open to interpretation, it all depend what perspective you take and what values you have. The "new, third, and post wave" feminist movements are a few among others, all of which appear to disagree with each other to some degree.

I dont have more time at the moment to delve into this more completely, but i did want assure you, to avoid this attracting flamers, that this has nothing to do with me mudslinging.

As you are aware, we are effectively limited to two presidential choices. The election here is not any one single issue, LGBT issues are big issues for me, but not the deciding factor.

Instead of trying to brand me as anti feminist, one would think having "conservatives" who accept and support the LGBT inside the conservative party, will only serve to educate others in the party who hold more antiquated conservative views towards your community.

And not just the conservatives of the world either. Frankly, I think the TG community has larger issues of acceptance by GG's than my conservative brothers, at least that has been my experience when telling my female and male friends of my TG experiences. But that is another issue.

One thing is clear... .. as easily as I can be called anti feminist, so can the girls here... it all depends from what perspective you want to frame the issue.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

There are huge rifts in the "feminist community" right now and sex work is only one of the dividing issues. For leading contemporary feminist writers such as Susie Bright, Carol Queen etc.... sex work is a feminist pursuit. It so happens that the new wave of feminist theory is highly supportive of trans inclusion, high femme identity (the idea that women can be feminist and like femininity is nothing new), and sex work.

Sure the 70's feminists were anti-porn and anti-prostitution, but those voices carry little weight these days. Especially with the emergence of dyke porn rags like On Our Backs (whose longtime feminist editor Tristan Taormino now works for Vivid), the Sex Workers art tour which has been incessantly touring the US for five or six years now, and on and on....

For more on the matter I recommend checking out Unrepentant Whore by Carol Queen.

Of course, if this is just an attempt to mudsling there is little I can say.

If I wanted to mudsling I would do so openly. I stated why the thought occurred to me, it was because I was called anti-feminist for supporting a supposed anti-feminist candidate.

As you and the others have stated, the feminist movement has many views, and many rifts, so everything is open to interpretation, it all depend what perspective you take and what values you have. The "new, third, and post wave feminist movements are a few among others, all of which appear to disagree with each other to some degree.

I dont have more time at the moment to delve into this more completely, but i did want assure you, to avoid this attracting flamers, that this has nothing to do with me mudslinging.

As you are aware, we are effectively limited to two presidential choices. The election here is not any one single issue, LGBT issues are big issues for me, but not the deciding factor.

Instead of trying to brand me as anti feminist, one would think having "conservatives" who accept and support the LGBT inside the conservative party, will only serve to educate others in the party who hold more antiquated conservative views towards your community.

And not just the conservatives of the world either. Frankly, I think the TG community has larger issues of acceptance by GG's than my conservative brothers, at least that has been my experience when telling my female and male friends of my TG experiences. But that is another issue.

One thing is clear... .. as easily as I can be called anti feminist, so can the girls here... it all depends from what perspective you want to frame the issue.

OH please, take the butt plug out of your ass and wake up and smell the coffee. You are full of it.

You tried to sling the mud at me and read me- so in turn exposed you and read you for filth. Grovel all you like.