Results 211 to 220 of 263
-
09-07-2008 #211
- Join Date
- Mar 2006
- Location
- The United Fuckin' States of America
- Posts
- 13,898
I'm not saying it's constitutional right, I'm merely contradicting your incorrect assessment that it would be a SPECIAL right.
"...I no longer believe that people's secrets are defined and communicable, or their feelings full-blown and easy to recognize."_Alice Munro, Chaddeleys and Flemings.
"...the order in creation which you see is that which you have put there, like a string in a maze, so that you shall not lose your way". _Judge Holden, Cormac McCarthy's, BLOOD MERIDIAN.
-
09-07-2008 #212
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
- Posts
- 46
Originally Posted by AllanahStarrNYC
-
09-07-2008 #213Originally Posted by hangman
And speaking of special privileges, I have a small minority view, that not being able to get married is a special privilege. They should have to suffer like the rest of us.
-
09-07-2008 #214
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
- Posts
- 46
Originally Posted by AllanahStarrNYC
You should be on your knees thanking the medical companies for the opportunity to purchase their medicine to keep your mother alive. Shouldn't you?
-
09-08-2008 #215
Re: The people on this board that scare me the most..
Originally Posted by hangman
But there is a difference between theory & practice. Someone may have a right to (picking from random) due process, but that doesn't mean our country in every instance, respected due process rights.
It would be incredibly easy to argue that the constitutional rights of trans citizens are NOT respected by either state or federal governments. Case in point look at the way law enforcement handles cases where the victim is a tranny. You'd have to be mentally insane to believe trans citizens have in practice "equal protection under the law" especially since in many cases there are no protections.*
Then there is how the DOJ handles cases involving trans citizens. We already know the Bush admin was illegally using lgbt issues as dictating the hiring/firing/promotional practices at the DOJ to help ensure LGBT citizens DON'T get equal treatment from the justice department.
* Taking this a bit further- there are an almost infinite ways someone could show that equal protection does not exist for the trans citizen. Discrimination law prohibits employers for firing people in some areas/conditions for "being black" or "being female" or any number of other things.... and the system has routinely shown that when these laws exist they need to be universal.
Gender discrimination law prohibits an employer from firing someone "for being male" just as much as it prohibits that same employer from firing someone "for being female"... yet there is nothing to prevent an employer bound by these regulations from firing someone "because they're undergoing a transition"
An employer could flat out fully document that they're firing someone "for transitioning", and tell it to the employee during the exit interview with a smile on their faces... and there isn't anything that the employee can do about it for compensation.
This is anything but equal protection.
Now let's look at marriage law. Marriage status is used in BOTH the state and federal governments to impact how the government interacts with couples on ALL KINDS OF LEVELS. Its not just tax law here. It would take me all day to list all the times the feds or states care "if someone is legally married." And yet, using the constitutional right to equal protection (thats #14 btw in case you wanna look it up), we can see that the government's protections differ (aka are NOT equal) based on whether or not a given couple can legally marry.
I will give what I consider to be the most important differences here.
A couple with a legally standing marriage cannot be compelled to testify against their spouse because of confidentiality. Its about (if not more) difficult to compel a spouse to testify against the other party as it is to force a preacher, or lawyer to do so.
BUT, because some couples cannot be married under the law, some couples cannot claim spousal confidentiality. Let's say I am with a guy in a state where I cannot marry one, and I am married symbolically but not legally. Now, the state OR feds can come in- and force me to testify against my husband (in the example, I am not in such an arrangement ATM) and I cannot claim "confidentiality'
There you have it, two near bullet proof examples of how equal protection does not exist simply because of LGBT-aimed bigotry.
Do I really need to post more? I could.
And maybe its easier to withdraw from life
With all of its misery and wretched lies
If we're dead when tomorrow's gone
The Big Machine will just move on
Still we cling afraid we'll fall
Clinging like the memory which haunts us all
-
09-08-2008 #216
When you marry, your spouse becomes your next of kin. Everybody else, including parents, offspring, & siblings, gets once removed. Marriage is the personal choice of people to become next of kin to each other. No other definition has universal meaning. If it was about love, the contract wouldn't be breakable, & there would be clauses in the law to keep people from engaging in family mergers. Yet 90% or better of all marriage law is about how to breach the contract. If it was about children, licences wouldn't be issued to post-menopausal women. It's written into the rituals & religious texts: "...cleave only unto...", "...forsaking all others...", ", till death do you part...", & blah blah blah.
There's no other reason to get married really, & it's the only reason for the State to justify its involvement. It's a change in familial status that needs to be recorded. I'm not all that keen on the idea of state licencing. I'm even less enthusiastic about the fact that the contract is non-negotiable, written by a third party, & subject to change at the whim of the third party without notice to the principals. Doesn't matter anyway because nobody ever reads the contract. Vows at the altar mean jackshit & all the principals ever see is the licence certificate. Once you sign the licence, you've agreed to abide by the terms of the contract that you've never read & even your lawyer can't figure out, & you're not married till you sign the contract.
As far as I'm concerned, the government, at any level, should be relegated to recording the change of status & nothing else. They sure as hell shouldn't be interfering with people's choices of life partner/s. It's really none of their business who or even how many. The problem with this is that somebody still has to write the contract. I'm of the opinion that all principals should be required to negotiate their own contract & sign a form of fully informed consent in lieu of a state issued licence. What the hell. If you can't agree on what you want & expect out of the relationship, you probably shouldn't be getting married.
"You can pick your friends & you can pick your nose, but you can't wipe your friends off on your saddle."
~ Kinky Friedman ~
-
09-08-2008 #217
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
- Posts
- 46
Originally Posted by yodajazz
-
09-08-2008 #218
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
- Posts
- 46
Re: The people on this board that scare me the most..
Originally Posted by SarahG
-
09-08-2008 #219Originally Posted by hippifried
Unless I am mistaken (which I will admit happens) I believe a married citizen can, in fact, leave their entire estate to some 3rd party, leaving their spouse high & dry.
It's a change in familial status that needs to be recorded. I'm not all that keen on the idea of state licencing. I'm even less enthusiastic about the fact that the contract is non-negotiable, written by a third party, & subject to change at the whim of the third party without notice to the principals. Doesn't matter anyway because nobody ever reads the contract. Vows at the altar mean jackshit & all the principals ever see is the licence certificate. Once you sign the licence, you've agreed to abide by the terms of the contract that you've never read & even your lawyer can't figure out, & you're not married till you sign the contract.
Originally Posted by hangman
Hate to tell you this but in real life the government is supposed to treat everyone equally regardless how it impacts "feelings," and we see this time and time again.
We also see that time and time again it doesn't happen for trans people.
This isn't "to make someone feel nice"- that is complete nonsense (not attacking you, just saying how little that argument flies) especially when we are talking about issues like hippa-law, whether individuals in a LTR can be called to testify against the other, access to employers benefits, all that stuff.
Honestly, as far as trans issues go- I would care less about whether spouses can be forced to testify against each other, access to private health care, and medical records access AS LONG AS every couple is treated THE SAME. I am sure most people here are by now familiar that I am not advocating for hand outs- simply equal treatment. But there can be no equal treatment in these areas as long as some couples can marry while others cannot.
how is this for an argument: This is the real world, some couples should not be forbidden from being married simply to make the couples who can "feel good."
Especially in a system that claims its citizens have a natural and constitutional right TO EQUAL TREATMENT.
And maybe its easier to withdraw from life
With all of its misery and wretched lies
If we're dead when tomorrow's gone
The Big Machine will just move on
Still we cling afraid we'll fall
Clinging like the memory which haunts us all
-
09-08-2008 #220
now here's some food for thought regarding civil unions...
If civil unions are for all couples who do not met the "one xx girl, one xy guy" definition, then provided civil unions have all of the same benefits (see prior post)- for MOST people, gay's particularly- that works.
But for trans people, this creates a "we have given you accommodation so you have to use it" scenario in which, in order to be married & trans you have to use a "civil union."
This would do a number on stealth life, especially if there are differences between "civil unions" and "marriages." To give an example if someone is required to use the term "partner" instead of "husband," then that is going to out girls who for all extensive purposes, are in typical heterosexual relationships.
But if the choice is "no marriage rights" or "civil unions" (with all the same benefits AND disadvantages) then it is a no brainer.
Although I still want to know how that system would deal with someone who is not XX or XY, considering that our current usually exclusionary system has no idea how to handle it in some states. Littleton is still the law of the land in Texas, yet afaik there has never been a texas ruling for chromosomal abnormalities.
All of this talk is premature however if people are falsely believing that we already have equal treatment and there go have no reason to modify the system.
And maybe its easier to withdraw from life
With all of its misery and wretched lies
If we're dead when tomorrow's gone
The Big Machine will just move on
Still we cling afraid we'll fall
Clinging like the memory which haunts us all