WAR IN GEORGIA... SHOULD WE START DIGGIN OUR SHELTERS?

[BrendaQG]

As you likely know Russia has invaded the rest of Georgia (the former Soviet Socialist Republic.)

What do you all make of this? Should we all start digging our fallout shelters and whording canned food and bottled water?


Not to mention needing your firearms to shoot the poor half dead irradiated bastards who did not prepare who now think they have a rite to break into your shelter kill you and eat you.

[El Nino]

Actually Putin is correct. The Georgians drew first blood. Out of the blue, as it were.

[trish]

Brenda says:

The reason they are supposed to have been so aggressive was that their gaining control over certain break away regions was a pre condition for NATO membership. Do you all know what we would have needed to do if this happend after they were in NATO? (See article 5 of the Atlantic Charter) We would have to respond to this as if the Russians had attacked the USA!...

I don’t have a full understanding of what’s going on there. So here’s just my current take on the situation.

Control of the break away regions is a precondition for Georgia’s membership in NATO. If Georgia met the precondition (i.e. if it had control of the break away regions), it would not have needed to attempt to regain control. Hence if Georgia had met the precondition, then we would not have to come to their aid (since there would’ve been no attempt to regain control and consequently there would’ve been no response from Russia). However, Georgia doesn’t meet the precondition, hence they aren’t a NATO member and consequently we still don’t have to come to their aid. It seems like NATO chose just the right preconditions.

What can Georgia do? Negotiate with Russia and the breakaways, or renegotiate with NATO. Trying to take the breakaways by force was stupid.

[hippifried]

Georgia IS a breakaway.

NATO should have been disbanded a long time ago.

Oh... & are y'all trying to tell me that you don't already have a bomb shelter?

[BrendaQG]

Trish

I was thinking of how this would be if we had not requiered that they have full control before being admitted to NATO. If that had been the case...well... we'd all be water vapor and carbon by now if we were lucky.

@hippie.

Are you saying it's ok for Russia to invade Georgia which broke away from the Soviet Union?

Either way it's ironic that after talking about freedom and self determination Georgia would deny that to a group within it's own borders....trying to crush them by sending in their tanks. I suppose we in the west would not have heard boo about it if Russia had not reacted like it did.

I thought of this in the car today. Because George Bush is a man of principles. If we have made earnest promises for security to them his principles dictate we back them up. He would push that red button. Guaranteed.

[NYBURBS]

NATO is a dinosaur that has outlived its purpose, and as such needs to be disbanded. This whole notion that one Nation is obligated to go to war for another is insanity. I'll give you that there were special circumstances in the mid 20th century that made this a viable option; however, that is no longer the case.

We also made a mistake not embracing the Russians more after the end of the cold war, and in not doing more to encourage real reforms (both economically and politically). They are now sliding backwards in their political reforms.

Honestly if the roles were reversed we would absolutely be outraged if the Russians were trying to place bases and missile components in our backyard. Shit we went to DEFCON 2 the last time they tried something like that. So this whole NATO expansion is a touchy issue for them.

Every region has its particular history of political struggles and disagreements. From what I have read this dispute has quite a bit of history to it; the argument goes back at least to the early 1900's. We should encourage diplomatic solutions and embrace emerging democracies, but going into WWIII over a dispute most of us know nothing or little about would be lunacy.

[trish]

Hey, Brenda. I agree we’d be in a hell of a mess were we obligated to come to Georgia’s aid. We can’t even implement a decent surge in Iraq without extending our troops’ tours of duty. It seems to me NATO chose that particular precondition deliberately and wisely. (I’ve already admitted that I know next to nothing about Georgia and I’m assuming you’re correct about the precondition placed on Georgia by NATO’s membership action plan.) The precondition essentially bars Georgia’s membership in NATO unless it can guarantee the stability of the region; i.e. guarantee that NATO won’t be dragged into needless confrontation with Russia.

I think I’m also agreeing with you, and hippiefried and NYBURBS in observing that NATO is was cold war artifice which functioned reasonably well in the era of MAD. But today it may create more uncertainty than stability (the present situation being an example).

It remains to be seen if NATO can redefine its function and purpose to meet modern challenges.

[hippifried]

Are you saying it's ok for Russia to invade Georgia which broke away from the Soviet Union?

I'm saying there's too many conflicting stories as to what this is all about, so I'm not willing to rekindle the cold war over it. I think it's always stupid to try & settle disputes with bombs & bullets. All it shows is a lack of imagination. It never ceases to amaze me that the dumbest people anywhere are usually the so-called "leaders"

[El Nino]

Trish, we've had special ops in Georgia for the past 2 months, and have been overtly transporting their troops from Iraq back to Georgia the past 5 days. We are already directly involved. I do not have the time to explain this game of chess, but the information is available if you seek it out. One hint, don't believe anything the MSM is spitting out. Its all falsehoods and smokescreens. Keywords: Tel Aviv, BP, Pipeline, NATO, CFR, 08/08/08/...

[BrendaQG]

Trish, we've had special ops in Georgia for the past 2 months, and have been overtly transporting their troops from Iraq back to Georgia the past 5 days. We are already directly involved. I do not have the time to explain this game of chess, but the information is available if you seek it out. One hint, don't believe anything the MSM is spitting out. Its all falsehoods and smokescreens. Keywords: Tel Aviv, BP, Pipeline, NATO, CFR, 08/08/08/...

IF so then we got our asses kicked because Russia has basically declared victory and is in possession of South Ossetia and has demonstrated that it still dominates it's border region.

@ Trish

Yes I agree that NATO as now constituted makes little sense. We should give the Baltic states Poland and such places the boot. Perhaps make a different less strong alliance with them.