The wisdom and foresight of Tomfurbs and Trish here on H.A.

[InHouston]

An anecdote, let alone one that’s likely fabricated, has little to no relevance on the estimation of probabilities. I’m merely recommending against buying a firearm and keeping it loaded and unlocked in your home. The possibility that you or someone you love will get shot by that firearm is much more likely than the possibility that an armed stranger will attempt to break into your home. The probability that 1) your home is invaded and 2) your firearm is in reach and 3) you actually manage to successfully defend yourself with it is even smaller.

You're right. My anecdote has absolutely no relevance to your "estimation of probabilities". That's all you're good for is estimates, and theories, and useless rhetoric that all stem from data trolled from Google, and based on zero personal experience on your part. Your rhetoric is simply an elaborate foist to conceal the fact that you (and others who staunchly agree with you) are simply cowards. You flame every single response I post here simply because you hate and/or fear what you lack within yourself. The more you post, the more you reveal how insubstantial and vacuous you are as a human being.

[muhmuh]

you hate and/or fear what you lack within yourself

what might that be? paranoia maybe?

[InHouston]

you hate and/or fear what you lack within yourself

what might that be? paranoia maybe?

Amazing. No use discussing self-defense with a bunch of weenies.

[trish]

Cowards? You're the one, InHouston, who thinks he needs a gun for protection. You're the one who's shivering from fear and telling everyone else they need to be afraid too. Lions, Tigers and Black Men with Shotguns....OH MY!!!

[InHouston]

Cowards? You're the one, InHouston, who thinks he needs a gun for protection. You're the one who's shivering from fear and telling everyone else they need to be afraid too. Lions, Tigers and Black Men with Shotguns....OH MY!!!

You are a coward. It's wrought in every post you've submitted on this topic. I've known 100 people like you that come and go. So confident, so informed, so resolute. Then when some "Black Man with a Shotgun ... OH MY!!!" breaks into your home you shiver under the bed like a helpless little rat, and will die like one too. Given your attitude on this subject, that is almost comical to me.

[trish]

Oh so you now KNOW a HUNDRED people who have disagreed with you on this issue, and then proved themselves to be cowards after being forced to look down the business end of a gun barrel. Either that or you're just CONJECTURING they would behave like cowards in such a circumstance. Or maybe you're just projecting your own fear onto others. You're afraid of how you might behave if "they" caught you without your guns. Me, I'm not afraid of my fellow man. It's just as you said: I'm confident, informed and resolute.

[SarahG]

Cowards? You're the one, InHouston, who thinks he needs a gun for protection. You're the one who's shivering from fear and telling everyone else they need to be afraid too. Lions, Tigers and Black Men with Shotguns....OH MY!!!

You are a coward. It's wrought in every post you've submitted on this topic. I've known 100 people like you that come and go. So confident, so informed, so resolute. Then when some "Black Man with a Shotgun ... OH MY!!!" breaks into your home you shiver under the bed like a helpless little rat, and will die like one too. Given your attitude on this subject, that is almost comical to me.

As a gun owner I have to concede she makes a strong case about most people not having a chance in hell of getting to their firearm in time in the event of a home invasion. I know I would be hard pressed to get to and load my firearms in time if someone broke into my apartment, even if they weren't safely locked away in a secure locker or display case.

In order to get passed that element of surprise you'd in many situations have to either have intruders who take a while to come across you (happens) or have the weapon loaded & on your person.... which may or may not be the case (with longarms I consider that at best being unlikely... who honestly walks around all day at home with their rifle slung over their shoulder?). A sidearm on the other hand, ok sure- I am sure some people walk around on their private property all day with a holster and would not have difficulty getting to their firearm quickly. This does not inherently make the defense argument moot in all scenarios, all cases.

There are people for which there is a reasonable expectation that they will need to rely on a firearm for self defense purposes. The example that easily comes to mind here is dealing with known abusive, violent stalkers- especially in areas where police will not be quick to respond. Your order of protection isn't going to mean shit when dealing with someone who has been documented to be violent towards you, and you simply cannot rely on law enforcement to arrive in time if these incidents are cyclical (expected), and the more rural you are the more this becomes of a concern (but I think it would be false to use rural as the only gauge of this issue, a girl was attacked in my apartment complex in an urban environment and it took almost 40 minutes for police to respond- like usual, YMMV).

However even here training is essential. Just getting a gun without training, and leaving it unsecured where kids etc can get to it may look bad (I kinda flinch when anyone plays the 'for the children' lines in making cases- but that's just my person opinion- not meant to be pointed), but the concern I would point out along those lines is different (I am not going to debate accident statistics because they IMO can be quite unreliable due to the misinformation -from both sides- that have muddied the water). My concern is that for someone who needs a firearm for reasonable defensive purposes, if they don't have training on that firearm for that scenario they risk making their situation WORSE, not better. If your attacker is unarmed and you lose your weapon in a struggle- now you're the one unarmed facing an armed opponent.

I cannot see blanketly disallowing self defense as an argument for gun ownership in all cases, but I do see training as being a reasonable requirement for that ownership -DEPENDING on how it is is done in theory, as well as in practice.

[Tomfurbs]

SoonToBeArrested/CommitedInHouston is back!

Shoot any 'black men with shotguns' lately, old top?

edit: about the 'coward' quip. I walk the streets of my city without fear. I sleep soundly at night. I don't put my trust in a gun.

How is that cowardly?

[hippifried]

Home invasions are extremely rare, & most are pulled off using the guns stolen from those who were arming themselves in fear of home invasions.

[InHouston]

Cowards? You're the one, InHouston, who thinks he needs a gun for protection. You're the one who's shivering from fear and telling everyone else they need to be afraid too. Lions, Tigers and Black Men with Shotguns....OH MY!!!

You are a coward. It's wrought in every post you've submitted on this topic. I've known 100 people like you that come and go. So confident, so informed, so resolute. Then when some "Black Man with a Shotgun ... OH MY!!!" breaks into your home you shiver under the bed like a helpless little rat, and will die like one too. Given your attitude on this subject, that is almost comical to me.

As a gun owner I have to concede she makes a strong case about most people not having a chance in hell of getting to their firearm in time in the event of a home invasion. I know I would be hard pressed to get to and load my firearms in time if someone broke into my apartment, even if they weren't safely locked away in a secure locker or display case.

In order to get passed that element of surprise you'd in many situations have to either have intruders who take a while to come across you (happens) or have the weapon loaded & on your person.... which may or may not be the case (with longarms I consider that at best being unlikely... who honestly walks around all day at home with their rifle slung over their shoulder?). A sidearm on the other hand, ok sure- I am sure some people walk around on their private property all day with a holster and would not have difficulty getting to their firearm quickly. This does not inherently make the defense argument moot in all scenarios, all cases.

There are people for which there is a reasonable expectation that they will need to rely on a firearm for self defense purposes. The example that easily comes to mind here is dealing with known abusive, violent stalkers- especially in areas where police will not be quick to respond. Your order of protection isn't going to mean shit when dealing with someone who has been documented to be violent towards you, and you simply cannot rely on law enforcement to arrive in time if these incidents are cyclical (expected), and the more rural you are the more this becomes of a concern (but I think it would be false to use rural as the only gauge of this issue, a girl was attacked in my apartment complex in an urban environment and it took almost 40 minutes for police to respond- like usual, YMMV).

However even here training is essential. Just getting a gun without training, and leaving it unsecured where kids etc can get to it may look bad (I kinda flinch when anyone plays the 'for the children' lines in making cases- but that's just my person opinion- not meant to be pointed), but the concern I would point out along those lines is different (I am not going to debate accident statistics because they IMO can be quite unreliable due to the misinformation -from both sides- that have muddied the water). My concern is that for someone who needs a firearm for reasonable defensive purposes, if they don't have training on that firearm for that scenario they risk making their situation WORSE, not better. If your attacker is unarmed and you lose your weapon in a struggle- now you're the one unarmed facing an armed opponent.

I cannot see blanketly disallowing self defense as an argument for gun ownership in all cases, but I do see training as being a reasonable requirement for that ownership -DEPENDING on how it is is done in theory, as well as in practice.

My compliments on your reasoning and insight SarahG, and very well said. And you did emphasize the point that is critical in all of this; training. I attend a tactical handgun defense class once a week. Before we enter the range we have to sit through the same safety briefing every time. I've heard the briefing dozens and dozens of times and its importance and impact has never diminished. There are people in there from many walks of life; young, old, male, female, timid, agile, aggressive, passive. There is even a pastor of a local church in there now since the church shooting in Knoxville Tennessee. What is stressed to everyone is proper and safe concealment, handling, and operation of the firearm, and most importantly to not injure innocent bystanders when defending yourself. They regularly address questions on how to safely stow loaded weapons in the home where children cannot access them, yet adults can get to them quickly should an intruder break in.

I do not buy the argument that your chances of getting to your weapon during an intrusion in your home are low. That is a matter of addressing the perimeter defense of your home. There is now a plethora of indoor and outdoor motion sensors that can be discreetly installed anywhere in and around your home. Because I woke up one morning to a burglar in my backyard, I now have four birdhouses inconspicuously perched in strategic paths along my back yard. Inside each one is a motion sensor that triggers an audible signal inside the house when someone is lurking around the yard. They even have doormats now with a pressure sensor and a hidden transmitter that will sound an audible signal in your home when someone merely steps on the mat. That is an excellent first line of defense to a kick-in robbery. If the mat is beeping, and there is no knock or ring of the doorbell, you now have a valid warning that something is awry outside your door. I have burglar bars as well, so I don’t even worry about a home invasion in spite of what some knuckleheads on this subject think I sit around worrying about. They’d have to make quite a ruckus to enter my home and will seek out another house to intrude upon. The bars serve as both an obstacle and a deterrent, and I sleep well at night.

Thanks again for your well thought out words, and was a breath of fresh air. First intelligent response I’ve seen to this post from a mind capable of sound reasoning.