"'cross-dressing tourists' in Dibai" various #'s

[BrendaQG]

(Some news reports now say the number is 40 and that most of the people arrested were immediately deported. Makes me wonder they have poice at the airport right? So why allow us to enter the country if that's how they feel?)

This would turn up here eventually in some form. So let me just get in front of the story.

According to CNN

Moral crackdown in Dubai
Dubai police crack down on immoral behavior of Westerners in the conservative Muslim state. CNN's Wilf Dinnick reports.

17 'cross-dressing tourists' held in Dubai

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) -- Police in the Gulf tourist hub of Dubai say they've detained 17 foreigners for allegedly displaying homosexual behavior in the city's shopping malls and other public places.

Police spokesman Zuhair Horoun says all the suspects are men who were either visiting or working in Dubai. He says they were detained Wednesday but did not elaborate or give details about their behavior.

But the Dubai-based Gulf News reported Thursday that police detained "40 cross-dressing tourists."

The paper quotes Dubai's police chief as saying the arrests are part of a campaign against "transvestites."

Outward homosexual behavior is banned in the United Arab Emirates. Despite its Western outlook, Dubai is a conservative Muslim city-state and, like much of the Arab world, remains largely hostile to homosexuality.

I will reserve judgment on this story until I know more details. It could be the UAE is in the wrong. I mean if those girls were just standing around acting normal that's one thing. Or it could be that those girls were trying to solicit either sex or business right there in the mall. Either of which would be unacceptable in a country like the UAE where even the genetic females cannot do that.... and if those girls were on the stroll well that's not legal here either.

Since they are presumably not Muslims they will not be likely not be subject to Sharia law. Which can be good and bad for the accused. The actual crime in sharia is to have anal sex. To prove a crime in Sharia needs four male Muslim eye witnesses (women count for 1/2 supposedly women might bend the truth out of emotion). Unless their accusers have that they would go free.

I suppose there are some who will write that such restrictions are wrong and the UAE should change. Well by what standard are we to judge? Are the barbarities of our society any more genteel than those of the UAE? Are it's niceties any less attractive than ours? The lesson for a western GLBT person should be as follows.

1.) If you cannot do as the Muslims do when it comes to your sexuality then stay out of their countries. They have GLBT communities in their countries they just act differently than us.

2.)If you must go there then be sensitive to their culture, it will not change just because of a US passport. Be discrete, not closeted or ashamed, just discrete. Make sure to keep any and all sex you have behind closed doors. Do not try to hook up at random only speak of sex with people you know, trust, and are confident will not turn on you.

3.)Know your rights and how to contact your countries embassy. They can at least help you find a decent attorney. Any decent scholar will tell you exactly what I have said about the evidence needed to convict you. If all your sex is behind closed doors (where it should be anyway), even if you are on camera, then you should have nothing to fear.

One thing that is notable to me is that I have seen and heard many times of foreign gay males and trans gender females getting into trouble there and almost never of natives of the UAE. LGBT people provably exist there natively. They likely follow the above guidelines. They are like my cousin who lives in NYC ...or.... say... the way your average glbt republican does things. They are gay and people around them know it they just don't discuss it. That is how you have to play it over there if you are gay.

___________

If you are transsexual and pre-op or non-op. Islamic law only cares about sexuality and not gender presentation. (I can produce you tube video's up the wazoo to back this up) Transwomen can move and act as freely over there as we do over here. However just like basically everyone else GLB or straight you have to check any sexual exhibitionism at the door when you leave your hotel or home. ( See above. )

I now expect to be bombarded with the usual cries of how crazy I am for writing anything but how horrible all dirty ol Muslims are and how we should all be killed. OR that we should all just convert to secular humanism. Or any number of slanderous lies or phobic things that would not be tolerated, even here about any other group... To which I say.... whatever. :sigh:

All I know is that when I go to a high hill in the park across the street from my apartment some Fridays, cry out the inviting any Muslims in earshot to pray with me, and hearing it echoed by brothers and sisters in the distance, that feels better than anything. (I know they hear because when I go to the catfish place and order the guy behind the counter mentioned this and gave me a free coke. He says and I agree one has to be brave to be Muslim in the USA.)

Now I am going to go say the early morning prayer.

As sallam ul-lakium

[BrendaQG]

To backup what I have to say about Islamic Law. This here is in reference apparently to a cross dresser and not a TS but it would apply I reckon.

London Telegraph:Cross-dressing British tourist acquitted
Last Updated: 12:55PM BST 13/08/2001

A Dubai court has acquitted a British tourist of violating public morals after he was arrested in a gold market dressed as a woman

A DUBAI court has acquitted a British tourist of violating public morals after he was arrested in a gold market dressed as a woman.

Judge Adnan al-Shawa said 55-year-old Philip Hulks's attire "contradicted general standards of decency expected by UAE society, but was not against the law".

Mr Hulks, a retired electronics engineer who has been on several visits to the United Arab Emirates, was arrested on July 8 wearing a black abaya robe and veil. He contended the outfit was a present for his wife which he had tried on for size.

Mr Hulks was also said to be in possession of an air pistol and pieces of cardboard rolled up like dynamite. Police initially suspected that he could have been planning a robbery but no extra charges were filed. Mr Hulks said: "It was a coincidence. I have never thought or planned to commit a robbery."

There's more to this story than simply "being" GLBT.

[Tomfurbs]

Stop pretending that Islamic countries are this magical haven for transsexuals.

If homosexuality is not allowed in a Muslim country, but SRS is and widely accepted, that is not tolerance of Transwomen, but an ulitmatum for homosexuals.

'Get the op, or to the gallows with you' is not furthering the cause of GLBT rights.

Heh. And then when you've been operated on, you only count as 1/2 a person!

[BrendaQG]

Stop pretending that Islamic countries are this magical haven for transsexuals.

If homosexuality is not allowed in a Muslim country, but SRS is and widely accepted, that is not tolerance of Transwomen, but an ulitmatum for homosexuals.

'Get the op, or to the gallows with you' is not furthering the cause of GLBT rights.

Heh. And then when you've been operated on, you only count as 1/2 a person!

Did you not read the second post I made?

"Judge Adnan al-Shawa said 55-year-old Philip Hulks's attire "contradicted general standards of decency expected by UAE society, but was not against the law". "

There you have it right from A Judges's mouth in the UAE. Simply being a transwoman with or without the op is not a crime.

Another thing is tom if you go back 20 years and I remember this well gay and gay friendly people were saying the same things about transsexualism right here in the USA.

Also the 1/2 a person thing is not true either. A woman is a whole person who in some circumstances has more rights than a man. The circumstance of her testimony being given less weight is in trials in court and inheritance. A circumstance where a woman has more rights is in family law. A divorced woman is entitled to a alimony for life (has been since the time of Muhammad), entitled to divorce almost on a whim, entitled to full custody of the children getting more money from the husband for having more children. [l]The man in a divorce is entitled to nothing at all.[/i]

It is a give and take. Under Sharia men and women are equal but not the same. That is hard for non-Muslim westerners to get a grasp on. This must be so for The vast majority of Muslim converts in the west are well educated females (consult any source you want).

Transsexuals living in the Islamic world (Pakistan 10 years ago)


Muslim women converts.


A Saudi Cleric speaking about how Deobandi (a.k.a. Whabbi) Muslims view women and their role in the household. Pay close attention to what he says at 2:17 it goes both ways.




I have most Germaine showed you.

a.) A quote from a UAE Judge on crossdressing in the UAE and there interpretation of Sharia and it NOT being illegal.

b.)I have shown you a video made at least a decade ago about the lives of TS/TG women in Pakistan. They are no better or worse off there than we were about a decade ago.

c.)I have shown you a video where muslim convert women in the USA talk about their lives. Dealing with the deeply held misconceptions like these here is the hardest part of their lives here.

d.) A Saudi Cleric speaking on what their view of women and womens rights is. But his is just one interpretation and perhaps the interpretation which is most oppressive of all to women. Yet at 2:17 of the video he does mention the explicit sexual equality of husband and wife.

I fully expect that in light of this evidence you will just call me crazy. That's just a risk I take for living, not just thinking, outside the box.

[Tomfurbs]

I know transsexualism is not a crime in Islamic countries. I never said it was.

Homosexuality is, as is anal sex.

Therefore telling homo's that they have to get SRS or face execution is an ultimatum, and has nothing to do with being tolerant of Transsexuals.

Have you ever travelled to an Islamic country Branda?


Edit: You are either a tolerant society, or you ain't.

[BrendaQG]

No I have not yet. But I know LGBT people who have and they had no problems what so ever. One person I knew on a certain other TG message board, one meant for moral support, actually checked in from Saudi Arabia was pre-op and had only one problem which was needing to be accompanied by a sexually un interested male wherever she went. (This is what they do to females. Supposedly that male will protect the female from being attacked. I am sure the males find it inconvenient too. I know most men are irritated when their woman takes them shopping here.)

As for what you say about SRS being seen as a cure for homosexuality... that is total BS. First of all that argument was used here in the USA 10-20-30 years ago and shown to be BS. Knowledgeable scholars of Islam who have taken the time to look closely at TG issues, as Ayatola Khomeni did, recognize the difference between homosexuals and transsexuals. ( He did this BEFORE he took control of Iran back in the late 70's.)

I freely acknowledge that things are not perfect there. Read what LGBT groups in Indonesia have to say. What I do not see in thier complaints is talk of being summarily executed just because they have some sugar in their swagger. There as here real problems exist. Things like job and housing discrimination. What bothers me is that some in the Islamic world do not recognize that even when one is not perfectly pious or normative that they still have rights. There are some who look at these matters, anything that they interpret as being sin, renders the sinner unworthy of human rights. Be that "sin" alcoholism, homosexuality, gambling, etc... There as here some preach hate from the pulpit and use their holy book to justify it.

Unlike here though it seems that only those splashy characters flamboyantly preaching hate are all you see on CNN and especially FOX (Mysteriously I have to admit the O'Riley Factor has actually been somewhat fair to Muslims.)

You never hear of the other side of that debate in the Muslim world if you rely solely on the western media. Like in this story. From the very same source. Where a conference of Indonesian Scholars concluded..."Homosexuals and homosexuality are natural and created by God, thus permissible within Islam"

[Tomfurbs]

Ah yes, the old 'Western Media' bullshit. This may come as a surprise to you, but some police forces in London have been allowing Sharia courts to practice law in the heavily moslem-populated areas of London, in order to improve community relations and curb crime. Yes, everyone in the west is an Islamaphobe!

I have been to Riyadh three times. The way women are treated there is not some beautiful expression of an ancient culture, it is women-hatred, pure and simple.

I am saying to you, Brenda, that if a nation treats transsexuals well, while treating homosexuals poorly, then something is 'Rotten in the State of Denmark'.

Homosexuality is punishable by death in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Mauritania, northern Nigeria, Sudan, and Yemen. Therefore, if you are a MTF transsexual who doesn't want the op, but still wants a sex life, you will be committing (in the eyes of the law) a homosexual act (dick-in-bum, heaven forbid!!!).

The 'SRS as a cure for homosexuality' is my understanding/distillation of the many posts you have written on this subject.

Lets see what Dr. Abdul Aziz Al-Fawzan, writing in Islamweb.net, has to say about butt-fucking: 'This sin, the impact of which makes one’s skin crawl, which words cannot describe, is evidence of perverted instincts, total collapse of shame and honor, and extreme filthiness of character and soul… The heavens, the Earth and the mountains tremble from the impact of this sin. The angels shudder as they anticipate the punishment of Allah to descend upon the people who commit this indescribable sin'

Here's Dr. Taha Jaber Al-`Alwani, President of the Graduate School of Islamic and Social Sciences and President of the Fiqh Council, writing in 2004: 'It has also been narrated from the Companions (may Allah be pleased with them) that this crime deserves severe punishment more than that of adultery to insure its deterrence and restraint. Verily, the punishment here is the burning of both homosexuals (the actor and acted upon) or stoning them with rocks till death because Allah Most High stoned the people of Lut after demolishing their village'

And of course, the good old Qu'ran:

(Koran 4:16)
If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish
them both...

(Koran 27:55)
Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather
than Women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant!

Not to mention The Hadith:

“When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes.”

“Kill the one who is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to.”


That's not 'Western Media's distortion', Brenda. That's straight from the horse's mouth.

Why would you want to have anything to do with those people?

[BrendaQG]

Honey I never said that the Islamic world was heaven. All I have ever said is that it is not worse than it is here.

You like to mention Sharia punishments but not Sharia evidence standards. To prove in a Sharia court that one is guilty of anal sex is almost impossible unless you are a total exhibionist having sex virtually in public.

Name the last time gay man was killed for homosexuality in Saudi Arabia, or the UAE.

The last executions anyone knows of for that were in Iran and those as it turns out were not for loving homosexual sex. Those were the hangings of two boys who raped a younger boy.

Yes in the Islamic world we have extremist and we have moderates too. You cannot say that one or the other holds more sway in all cases.

[El Nino]

Religion is mind-control.

[BrendaQG]

True to an extent. Weather created by god or by man I am a strong beliver in meme theory.

At least the Abrahamic religion(s) are a memes which prevents more evil than they cause. Imagine how violent west Eurasia would be if every village had it's own god? Imagine how violent some people would get if they thought there would be no eternal punishment for the wicked.