TO THE MEN FROM TS in Light of recent comments

[Justawannabe]

I have to agree with some parts of the above posts.

Calling an activity gay makes no sense to me. Let's go back a few decades and you would have folks saying a man is gay if he's not on top, same logic. Gay is activity between two people of the same gender (or sex if you don't believe in non-genital gender). I mean we don't say cocksucking is a gay activity and a woman doing it is just a gay man in denial.

Anyway... too tired to make much sense... so I'll shut up now.

Sean

[vietboy]

Calling an activity gay makes no sense to me. Let's go back a few decades and you would have folks saying a man is gay if he's not on top, same logic. Gay is activity between two people of the same gender (or sex if you don't believe in non-genital gender). I mean we don't say cocksucking is a gay activity and a woman doing it is just a gay man in denial.

To belabor the issue, it might be argued that any act received by a man is 'gay' if it can only be realistically performed by a man or in simulation of a man's organ. So with respect to Justawannabe's examples (a man not being on top and oral sex), both are NOT 'gay' because in both situations, either a man or a woman can perform the oral sex or be on top. The fact a woman can perform oral sex or ride on top 'redeems' the act from being exclusively a part of gay repertoire, so to speak.

However, if a man receives anal sex, using either a penis or a dildo (a faux-phallus), then that act might be considered as 'gay' because a penis, or penis-like object, is required. In other words, receiving a dildo up your ass might be 'gay' because it is a simulation of having a cock up your ass. Similarly, if a guy sucks a cock, then that would be construed as a 'gay' activity under this definition.

If you're so comfortable with your sexuality that you get easily annoyed by gay threads, please quietly move on. There is no need for flaming.

[GinX]

I think this problem stems from the fact that we tend to identify and label certain acts as being gay or straight rather defining the person as gay or straight. A man who enjoys being anally stimulated/penetrated is not necessarily gay...he simply finds pleasure in the purely mechanical act. Remember, the prostate is an erogenous zone in the male. If a man asks his wife/girlfriend to do him with a strap-on from time to time, does that make him gay?

Hell yes.

Ask the average straight woman what she thinks of such activity. The vast majority of straight women consider those actions gay.

And I don't think you should ignore their opinion. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think your position is that acts or actions don't necessarily define a person; instead, a man is defined by how he fancies himself. Surely though it is absurd to claim a man who eats meat is not a carnivore if he believes that he is actually a vegetarian!

Just as there are different ways to eat meat, there are also different ways to have gay sex, such as receiving anal sex or being intimate with a male. I believe that actions speak louder than words, and no matter how much a guy protests, if he participates in gay sex, then he is gay.

As a corollary, a guy who insists that he is gay is not taken seriously if he has not had gay sex. Thus, Norm Peterson on Cheers was not considered gay even though he insisted such, so as to be taken seriously as an interior designer. But if Norm the interior designer had revealed that he enjoyed buttsecks, even if it was only with Vera, then he would have fulfilled the gay criteria for most people and probably gone on to be a successful interior designer.

Another part of this issue is that some men who fall into the aforementioned category are often derided themselves and frequently taunted with the epithets of 'faggot' and 'queer'...believe me, I know because I happen to fall into this category.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying that you are 'queer', or are you saying that people taunt you with the 'queer' epithet? 'Faggot' is an epithet and and 'queer' can be an epithet, depending on the context, similar to 'honky' and 'gringo', respectively. But 'gay' is not an epithet, nor is 'white'. Both are labels that have utility.

I think the most important thing to do is not to worry about attaching a label to anyone and rather just make the earnest attempt to understand another person's ideas and motivations.

Gay is just about the only mainstream label that is still rejected by many people who are arguably gay. When it comes to this label alone, some gays reject it on the basis that "labels don't matter." I believe this denial of reality is actually motivated by shame. No one should feel ashamed of being gay.

It's not my position that anyone should feel ashamed about being anything; rather, it is merely my position that no one should have to endure a label that another person forces upon him or her because of another person's perception.

Your position that a married woman would consider her husband gay if he asked her to top him is an over-generalization and should be avoided. Need I remind you that mainstream society still views sex with a pre-op TS to be gay sex, even if you are the one doing the topping? Are you comfortable with that?

If we want to further this with precise definitions, then it should be noted that a homosexual is defined as human being who desires intimate relations with members of the same sex, exclusivesly, just as a heterosexual is a human being who desires intimate relations with members of the opposite sex, exclusively.

While a member of this board, I've read that pre-op TS women should be viewed as women, period...but I've also read statements by some people that any man who desires sexual relations with a pre-op TS is not 100% straight....so what can we deduce? Are we to believe that sex between a man and a pre-op should strictly be viewed as sex between man and woman, regardless of the acts involved, and therefore heterosexual sex....or do we believe that sex between a man and a pre-op TS indicates, at the very least, that man is bisexual...or do we leave these considerations aside and allow those involved to determine what nomenclature best suits them and we should simply resist the desire to pigeon-hole someone with a term that WE think fits them best?

What do you think?

[DC]

Who cares its just getting off.....

[yodajazz]

It's not my position that anyone should feel ashamed about being anything; rather, it is merely my position that no one should have to endure a label that another person forces upon him or her because of another person's perception.

Your position that a married woman would consider her husband gay if he asked her to top him is an over-generalization and should be avoided. Need I remind you that mainstream society still views sex with a pre-op TS to be gay sex, even if you are the one doing the topping? Are you comfortable with that?

If we want to further this with precise definitions, then it should be noted that a homosexual is defined as human being who desires intimate relations with members of the same sex, exclusivesly, just as a heterosexual is a human being who desires intimate relations with members of the opposite sex, exclusively.

While a member of this board, I've read that pre-op TS women should be viewed as women, period...but I've also read statements by some people that any man who desires sexual relations with a pre-op TS is not 100% straight....so what can we deduce? Are we to believe that sex between a man and a pre-op should strictly be viewed as sex between man and woman, regardless of the acts involved, and therefore heterosexual sex....or do we believe that sex between a man and a pre-op TS indicates, at the very least, that man is bisexual...or do we leave these considerations aside and allow those involved to determine what nomenclature best suits them and we should simply resist the desire to pigeon-hole someone with a term that WE think fits them best?

What do you think?

Well put! Personally, I define men that like pre-ops as bisexual. But sex labels are rarely understood in the depth of their meanings. For a person who strongly attracted to t's, saying that they are bisexual would probably add more confusion than it helps. I have said that sex labels are more like general directions than specific behaviors. So the bottom line is that people should be able to define themselves, because they know who they are in their hearts better than any label maker. Label should not be so important anywhere, but especially here. But the debate here goes on endlessly.

I find it especially ironic when t-people, who demand the right to define themselves, get upset when the people who love them ask to define themselves.

[uchetal]

I'm a rookie poster but also a husband , father, and an educator.
I have followed the recent post from Danielle and the replies. Danielle I commend you and support you and your post.

As part of a Masters class in Human Sexuality a few years ago, I chose for my topic, Violence against Transexuals. An article, detaling the trial of the scum bags who killed Gwen Arajuo made me discussed and saddened. How could people treat another human being like this? What my research uncovered is that, there was not much that had been written about violence against transexuals or transgendered individuals. I searched the Internet for weeks looking for information. I did find news articles about the transexual who was, assaulted, beaten, or murdered. Some crimes in which the perpertrator was found, some unfound. The more I read the more upset I got. My surprise was that there were not specific studies or long researched articles about the violence that was committed and, by the way, is still occuring.

My research brought me to the multiple Internet porn sites but also brought me to sites were transexual/transgendered individuals either had a voice or an advocate. I tried to learn as much as I could about TS/TG individuals, lifestyle and communities and I am still learning.

To make a long story short, what did I learn? I learned that as a human race, certain factions of it do not, and will not, accept people because they are different. Xenophobia is the term. Look at history and it shows how violent people can be toward other human beings because they are different. Let me list some examples that have had in impact on our society.
The plight of American Indians, Japanese-Americans, Emmitt Till, Brandon Teena, Matthew Shepard, Amanico Corrales, Gwen Araujo. Forgive me for those I did not list. All these people were persecuted because of one thing: they were different in some way. Someone or some people took it upon themselves to try and rid the world, or at least their town, of these people. Unfortunately incidents like these continue.

I have nothing against the woman or people who post here, unless of course you are mean an unaccepting. If you are on here to ridicule, demean, and put down the folks who do post here, you are a bully. Not a stong one I might add. You are no better then the people who persecuted the groups of people I mentioned above.

I will leave you all with a quote from George Sanatyana - " Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it."

[jimbobw2]

I am not angry, have issues, let men rule my world, or even rude comments.

However I do worry about what it is said because:

1: Girls who are just starting out need encouragement - Jennifer Paris was not always Jennifer Paris. She started some where...
2: Men need to learn how to respect women
3: I stand up to pricks - does this defy me as an angry person? To those who are haters ... yes
4: Because I care, and that makes me someone special... Caring is a great thing - Another misconception.
5: Because I CAN
6: Pricks need to be put in their place
6: Because I want to make an example of bad behavior
7: Because men constantly ask why we get angry and hate on "chasers"
8: should I go on?

you have 2 six's

[jimbobw2]

but if your going to get all high and mighty about who you are, and what you've had to go through... don't slap the guy standing next to you down like he has no value. You don't want it done to you, stop throwing you own slurs around.

I don't know, just this post I both wanted to applaud and shout at the same time... lifting up your own is a wonderful thing... doing it by vilifying others is not.

Sean

I am only making an example out of those who no matter how much we make posts like these it will never compute. Their brain is a PC and what I am saying is MAC...

I am not trying to put anyone down, I am just pulling off the vail. They are already on the floor, I am just making sure they stay there.

I am not anyone to teach these assholes anything, I am simply giving them a look at the harsh reality of things.

Does the fact we TS have a hard time in life have any meaning to any of our admirer's life? Not really because what most see on the net are dicks and boobs.

Most don't really make a point to address us even as anything else then a nut off their dick.

I am not going to be nice about it - Sorry, that is wayyyyyy too much to ask. If you slap me on the face I don't turn the other cheek. Bitch you are gonna get socked.

I am a lady but when it comes to speaking my mind I don't hold back, no matter how you want to analyze it.

But I appreciate your very intelligent argument in the subject. Maybe you can get through to men. I just don't want to keep repeating myself.

Here is a better son for ya haha

Remember Helen Reddy

I am woman, hear me roar
In numbers too big to ignore
And I know too much to go back an' pretend
'cause I've heard it all before
And I've been down there on the floor
No one's ever gonna keep me down again

CHORUS
Oh yes I am wise
But it's wisdom born of pain
Yes, I've paid the price
But look how much I gained
If I have to, I can do anything
I am strong (strong)
I am invincible (invincible)
I am woman

You can bend but never break me
'cause it only serves to make me
More determined to achieve my final goal
And I come back even stronger
Not a novice any longer
'cause you've deepened the conviction in my soul

CHORUS

I am woman watch me grow
See me standing toe to toe
As I spread my lovin' arms across the land
But I'm still an embryo
With a long long way to go
Until I make my brother understand

Oh yes I am wise
But it's wisdom born of pain
Yes, I've paid the price
But look how much I gained
If I have to I can face anything
I am strong (strong)
I am invincible (invincible)
I am woman
Oh, I am woman
I am invincible
I am strong

FADE
I am woman
I am invincible
I am strong
I am woman


Roar on!!!

[Justawannabe]

vietboy...

You actually helped illustrate my point pretty well... We're back to the old saying a man who fucks ten thousand women is straight as an arrow until he so much as looks at one cock, then he's gay... and in most of the posters views around here, always was, just in denial. That's what bugs me.

It's not that there is anything wrong with being gay. It's that it is being portrayed like some for of contaminant... one part per billion is enough to call it 'gay'. There is 100% pure straight... and everyone else is 'gay'.

Oh and in your example above... anal play comes with fingers tongues and other implements too... so perfectly possible for a woman to be the actor in that play. Still a 'gay' activity? Two women using a strap on between them are NOT have straight sex, even if a dildo is a penis substitute.

Two men kissing is gay to me... because two men are doing it, same applies to every other activity. It's whos involved, not what they are doing.

- I don't think I was nasty in my previous post so not sure where your telling me to move on...

Sean

[bob69]

My 2 cents:

-The label gay is very relative. To "mainstream" society everyone on this board IS gay...even if you are just getting excited by looking at the pictures of a TS. To a ts woman she is a woman, as are others who are transitioning from M2F. I doubt many TS girls consider they boyfriend gay, but the moment he really pisses them off you can bet that the word fagot will be thrown about.. and if anyone should have a good understanding of the effect such name calling has it would be someone who almost certainly was called that at some point. .
If my female partner really gets off on liking my ass and sticking her finger in there does that make her gay? And what if I enjoy it? My point is that it is such a relative term that it really shouldn't matter

-A lot of men who crave sex with a TS have trouble with their own fantasies. It is never easy to want something that society does not consider normal...and instead of accepting it as just sex they add guilt to the equation. Guilt that they then turn into resentment towards the very object they desire. Humans are very strange beasts. We want to be part of the group and to be seen as "normal" for the most part, so we create a persona for the world, at the same time who we really are and what we want is often in conflict with the image we present. It really shouldn't be a surprise then that so many clients of TS escorts are conflicted and might not behave or treat the girls as they should. This does not make it right or ok, but does explain it. Add to the mix fantasies and pornography and it is little wonder that many clients do not see Ts women as individuals, but just as a sex toy to be used to their satisfaction. Although, I think that last part also applies to GG who escort. I'm sad that there are a lot of unkind men out there that make you feel like crap..but there are also a lot of bitches out there that do the same. Accept the fact that some will treat you well and avoid the ones who don't... just like anyone else does.