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  1. #161
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    Default Re: Hillary Clinton: I Used to Love Her

    Quote Originally Posted by zerrrr View Post
    The Republicans thought it was at the time. Every step since then has just dipped us further into the quagmire of Middle Eastern politics that includes the last eight years.
    It's tough to make the right decision even when you don't do anything deliberately stupid. The decision to invade Iraq cost hundreds of billions of dollars and tens of thousands of lives. The decision to withdraw troops? It was not all that clear at the time what the net cost would be and it's not that clear what the cost would have been had we retained troop numbers.

    The reason I nitpicked your terminology is that I don't think the actions of Bush and Obama were equivalent in any sense and the distinction in terminology makes that point (there's a different word for starting a war and negotiating terms of withdrawal). Obama has tried to engage in diplomacy and tried to draw down our troop commitment. You cannot hold someone to account for failing to clean up a disaster as effectively as it was created.


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  2. #162
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    Default Re: Hillary Clinton: I Used to Love Her

    My problem with Obama's approach was the Arab Spring which ended up being a complete disaster. The focus should have been just stabilizing the region, not overthrowing governments.

    Then to top it off he gives speeches and put out information leading us to believe the Al Qaeda was nothing more than some low level mob operation from the documents seized at his home when it was clearly not the case. If so, we would not be hearing about them today.

    My problem with our foreign policy is that we think solely in terms of how everyone should live through a US lens when it is clearly not the case. You have to look at how people live by putting yourself in their shoes.


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  3. #163
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    Default Re: Hillary Clinton: I Used to Love Her

    Quote Originally Posted by zerrrr View Post
    Quoting Harry Reid is like quoting a con man. One of the most corrupt and disliked Democrats in the Senate by his own party.
    In terms of Iraq, a complete failure. The government is laughably weak and long-term our military is looking to move closer to Iran than Saudi Arabia since the young Saudi's are more radical in nature. Your quoting Bush but ignoring Obama's eight years of failure in the region.
    Remember the change in governments across North Africa that was supposed to bring in a wave of democracy and peace? How has that worked? It hasn't except to create more chaos. Yemen, Iraq, Syria, and Libya are still in conflict.
    The diplomacy of the last eight years has not worked. Neither has the diplomacy of Bush when he went into Iraq.
    In terms of Asia, they are moving closer to China because they look at the election rhetoric with disdain and realize their future is with the Chinese who are not talking about war and starting conflicts around the world.
    Can you trust the US? Asia does not think so. Americans think they can but that is an American line of thinking being pressed onto Asia rather than looking at it from an Asian point of view. They see the Americans as warlike wanting conflicts around the world. That is the problem with America; we think in terms of ourselves and how others should see us rather than emphasizing with the other countries.
    If you think just electing Hillary is going to solve our foreign policy problems you are mistaken. There is a lot of work to be done to repair damage caused by more than a decade of failure.
    Please accept these congenial thoughts in reply to your post.

    a) I honestly don't know much about Harry Reid so I can't judge him, but he does hold a senior position in Congress.

    b) I don't know if Hillary Clinton as President can solve foreign policy problems, but I do think she can put together a better foreign policy team than Donald Trump.

    c) I think it is unfair to judge Obama's record in the Middle East as a failure, if only because you only need ask 'What does success look like?' to appreciate the extent to which the problems in the Middle East are local and regional and that if anything, the Obama Presidency has tried to step back from problems which it could not control anyway, it is called damage limitation.

    But rather than go into the details which would take in the politics of every Presidency since Eisenhower, and the long-established (since the 1930s) commercial links (through the petroleum industry) the broad brush approach would ask why if it is the case, has the US appeared to lose influence in a region where it was once trusted as a partner and an honest broker?

    Consider the importance of the Peace Treaty that President Carter brokered between Egypt and Israel in 1979, and the Peace Treaty between Israel and the PLO that President Clinton brought to a conclusion on the same spot on the White House lawn in 1993. On both occasions two warring parties agreed to stop fighting, and on both occasions the USA was victorious where the Russians were defeated. The 1979 treaty was possible because Egypt broke its relations with the USSR, fed up with its measly financial contributions and second-rate military hard-ware -President Asad thus swapped the USSR for the USA and opted for peace instead of war. In 1993 the PLO signed a peace treaty having lost the financial support of the USSR and at a time when the new Russia was led by a man, Boris Yeltsin, who was ignorant and indifferent to Middle Eastern issues.
    Vladimir Putin was an observer of Yeltsin's failures and I do not doubt for one moment that defeating a Clinton would make his day, however he thinks that can be achieved; but replacing the USA as the region's most trusted partner would be a dream come true. Don't be fooled by Syria, Turkey and Iran -Vladimir, dream on.

    Compare the successes of Carter and Clinton with the abject failures of Ronald Reagan in Lebanon,and George HW. Bush and his son George W. Bush in Iraq- not once but twice-, and you can observe an erosion of confidence in parts of the region in both the commitment of the USA and its motives. Moving troops into a country to defend its government or providing materiel and intelligence in support of a friendly government was standard practice for years, deliberate regime change by military means was a different order of magnitude. Doing so to long-established dictatorships which offer no smooth transition to peaceful let alone democratic government appears to have been risky to the point of insanity and the Obama Presidency has had to deal with this legacy, and before you leap in and shout 'Libya!' bear in mind that the greatest military support for the rebels in Benghazi that led to Qadhafi's demise was led by France and the UK.

    The conclusion is that if the last ten years has seen an erosion of US influence in the region, the blame must lie with Republicans in general, and the Bush Presidency in particular. The Arab Spring which ignited hope before being smothered by state violence was never going to be a victory for anyone, but if the USA was going to take sides, why not with the people against the dictators? And yes, in some cases, such as Egypt, the US got it wrong, but that would require a different discussion than we have time for here.

    After all, what has Russia achieved? It has become involved in an expensive civil war in Syria that has no end in sight, and whose conduct has reflected badly on its reputation. It has a flakey relationship with Turkey that can be co-operative on one day and become aggressive on another. It has failed to establish good relations with most of the region in part because of its actions in Syria, and those relations it has may not last. The USA might have lost something in the Middle East, but what, in reality, has Russia won? Not a lot.

    A President Clinton, if it happens, faces an uphill struggle in the Middle East, and a more fractious, unstable and violent region than I can recall in my own lifetime. But with a good team and a patient and thoughtful policy agenda, I think she can re-build trust in the region, and be there when the time comes for wars to end and for treaties to be made. History is on the side of the Democrats on this, harsh as the region looks right now. Because I also think the Arabs want peace, they are also sick and tired of war and corruption and dictatorship. It can't last forever.


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  4. #164
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    Default Re: Hillary Clinton: I Used to Love Her

    Look, what Comey did was put Hillary's face front and center, so what we've got now is what you would have if the Republicans had Jeb Bush running. It's ALWAYS going to be about Hillary. You will never see a Democratic President that will beat Republicans up as much as Hillary will.
    Republicans didn't pick the wrong bitch to fuck with, we picked her.

    Obama won the Iraq War: two dollar gas.
    Thanks, Obama.
    Obama is from Chicago,...... the children there are tougher than ISIS.
    (I wish I was kidding)

    I want to see what happens to Fox News, Megan Kelly is adding a chapter to her book about Ailes sexually cornering her. They're making that little pantywaste Tucker Carlson their 7PM man replacing that clutch cargo puppet Greta van Sustreren.

    The Republicans have had their own TV Network where Republicans could tell any lie they want, with no counter response from Democrats, unless you count those fake dems on their payroll. That's illegal.
    If it isn't
    Hillary's new Supreme Court Justices will make sure it's illegal again.
    And get dirty money out of politics,
    And a couple hundred other things Scalia did.
    On a level playing field, the GOP is doomed as it is now.
    I don't hate the rednecks, I hate the Cruz$$ez.
    Brylcream and bullshit.
    Crooked Hillary might face Cruz in four years.
    Oh, my God.
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  5. #165
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    Default Re: Hillary Clinton: I Used to Love Her

    You know Trump can still win this thing right?



  6. #166
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    Default Re: Hillary Clinton: I Used to Love Her

    Quote Originally Posted by blackchubby38 View Post
    You know Trump can still win this thing right?
    Those sound like WAGERING words, sir............


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  7. #167
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    Default Re: Hillary Clinton: I Used to Love Her

    Quote Originally Posted by blackchubby38 View Post
    You know Trump can still win this thing right?
    Honestly, no. I think he would need a swing in voting that even he cannot manage, or a successful campaign of voter suppression in North Carolina and Florida as was claimed in a story in Bloomberg News this week quoting an 'unnamed Trump official' thus:
    We have three major voter suppression operations under way,” aimed at idealistic white liberals, young women and African Americans."
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...rolina-florida

    -Plus another claim the Russians will be stepping up their cyber-attacks with possible new leaks from their Wikileaks partners.
    http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...mayhem-n677636

    -Who made that claim about rigged elections?



  8. #168
    Silver Poster hippifried's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hillary Clinton: I Used to Love Her

    Quote Originally Posted by buttslinger View Post
    I want to see what happens to Fox News, Megan Kelly is adding a chapter to her book about Ailes sexually cornering her. They're making that little pantywaste Tucker Carlson their 7PM man replacing that clutch cargo puppet Greta van Sustreren.

    The Republicans have had their own TV Network where Republicans could tell any lie they want, with no counter response from Democrats, unless you count those fake dems on their payroll. That's illegal.
    If it isn't
    Hillary's new Supreme Court Justices will make sure it's illegal again.
    And get dirty money out of politics,
    And a couple hundred other things Scalia did.
    On a level playing field, the GOP is doomed as it is now.
    I don't hate the rednecks, I hate the Cruz$$ez.
    Brylcream and bullshit.
    Crooked Hillary might face Cruz in four years.
    Oh, my God.
    You're talking about the fairness doctrine. Sorry, but the Supremes have nothing to do with it. It was never a law. It was an administrative rule in the FCC regulations, & was changed to a voluntary status during the Reagan years. Commission members are presidential appointees. They set the licensing regs for broadcasting on the public airwaves. As much as I'd love to blame Scalia for all that's wrong in the world, I think he was an HW Bush appointee. Not guilty on this one. Too bad. We could string him up posthumously.

    Oh yeah... Ted Cruz was born a Canadian. He's a naturalized citizen. Natural born and naturalized aren't the same thing, and it doesn't matter who his mother is. That's why all the same clowns who just love him now were trying so hard to convince everyone that President Obama was born in Kenya. That would disqualify him from being President. Now the same assholes would like you to think that Republicans are immune from the same Constitutional prerequisites. Both George Romney (1964) & Cruz (2016) dropped out of the race before the SCOTUS could rule on it. Kind of sad that Ted Cruz was the Republican's last chance to keep from being Trumped. Oh well... That's what you get for let the crazy run amok because you're too chickenshit to take on the tea-baggers in the primaries.

    Oh & 1 more thing: No use blaming God. God's an asshole when it comes to politics. Instead of saying "Oh, my God!", just say "Holy Shit!".


    Last edited by hippifried; 11-04-2016 at 10:23 AM.

  9. #169
    Silver Poster hippifried's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hillary Clinton: I Used to Love Her

    Quote Originally Posted by blackchubby38 View Post
    You know Trump can still win this thing right?
    I wouldn't put a lot of stock in the NYPost/ABC poll that showed a 1% spread. Even the Wall Street Journal rolls their eyes at that one. Seems that turned out to be a question about "enthusiasm". The NYT reported 6% of likely voters with no visible dip over the email bullshit. She'll probably take Ohio, Nevada, and Colorado. Arizona's 11 votes are up for grabs & starting to tip toward blue. Regardless of how red it's painted on the map, Texas is in play. It's shaping up to be a landslide folks. I think the media, who hype the "horse race" nonsense, underestimate just how turned off the American people are by this blustering jerk. He garners no respect. Like a traveling snake oil salesman. He got the nomination because the rest of the pack were such losers. He was just the last bozo out of the clown car. There's no there there. He has conservative Republicans trying to decide whether to write in somebody else, vote Libertarian, or just stay home.

    I still have a bit of tingling from the knot in my stomach every election, but my sense of dread is way down this time around. Whether I've liked the outcome or not, I've won every Presidential election bet since I started in 1972. Hope my instincts hold up.



  10. #170
    Hung Angel Platinum Poster trish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hillary Clinton: I Used to Love Her

    Everytime I check FiveThirtyEight Nate Silver has Hillary's probability of winning going down. On November second it was 70%, yesterday it was 66%. I sleep with my teeth clenched. I can't stand this election. If Trump takes the White House, I'm having a lobotomy.


    "...I no longer believe that people's secrets are defined and communicable, or their feelings full-blown and easy to recognize."_Alice Munro, Chaddeleys and Flemings.

    "...the order in creation which you see is that which you have put there, like a string in a maze, so that you shall not lose your way". _Judge Holden, Cormac McCarthy's, BLOOD MERIDIAN.

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