yeah, CLINTON QUITS

[Oli]

Nothing about it was bogus hippie.

The question was posed "when did Obama convert to Islam" I answered the answer from birth because his father was a Muslim (FYI if his mother had been a Muslim and his father not it would work the same way).

You say that means nothing to the non adherents to Islam..

I mean... let's take it away from the subject of Islam to an analogous one... Judaism. Can I ask you this who decides who's Jewish and who isn't? The Jewish people according to their long standing laws and customs or the gentiles? Do gentiles get to tell Jews who is Jewish? No. The only time I know of that happening was in Nazi Germany.

You really ought to know the facts before opening your pie hole. A child born to a Jewish mother is considered a Jew. As is a Christian child. He was born to an agnostic father and Christian mother. Where in his past has Barack Obama stated "there is no god except one God and Muhammad is the messenger of God."?

According to Obama himself he was non religious until 1985:
It began in 1985, when he came to Chicago as a $13,000-a-year community organizer, working with a number of African-American churches in the Roseland, West Pullman and Altgeld Gardens neighborhoods that were trying to deal with the devastation caused by shuttered steel plants.

"I started working with both the ministers and the lay people in these churches on issues like creating job-training programs, or after-school programs for youth, or making sure that city services were fairly allocated to underserved communities," he says. "And it was in those places where I think what had been more of an intellectual view of religion deepened.

"I became much more familiar with the ongoing tradition of the historic black church and its importance in the community. And the power of that culture to give people strength in very difficult circumstances, and the power of that church to give people courage against great odds. And it moved me deeply."

http://www.suntimes.com/news/falsani...040504.article

By those rules that govern Islam and Muslims, Islamic Law or Sharia, Barrack Hussien Obama was at one time a Muslim.

So it would be accurate to say that he was a Muslim but he isn't any more.

No by those rules he would have been an non practicing Christian until 1985.

[hippifried]

Nothing about it was bogus hippie.

The question was posed "when did Obama convert to Islam" I answered the answer from birth because his father was a Muslim (FYI if his mother had been a Muslim and his father not it would work the same way).

You say that means nothing to the non adherents to Islam..

I mean... let's take it away from the subject of Islam to an analogous one... Judaism. Can I ask you this who decides who's Jewish and who isn't? The Jewish people according to their long standing laws and customs or the gentiles? Do gentiles get to tell Jews who is Jewish? No. The only time I know of that happening was in Nazi Germany.

Or how about Native American tribal membership? Who decides who is a member of the tribe and who isn't the tribe or people outside of the tribe.

OR
How about something nearer at hand. In ball culture who decides who is in a given house? The people in the various houses or people out in straight society?

I hope through all of these analogies you see how completely absurd your claims are hippie. Each of these situations is analogous to the question of who is and is not a Muslim. Each of those subcultures has rules, and customs of some kind that govern group membership. By those rules that govern Islam and Muslims, Islamic Law or Sharia, Barrack Hussien Obama was at one time a Muslim.

So it would be accurate to say that he was a Muslim but he isn't any more.

Also again don't write at me like I am just now getting on the bandwagon for Obama. I have already taken the opportunity to vote for the man twice (for senate, and in the primary).

No it isn't accurate. There was no conversion. Ever. You also stated that he was indoctrinated into the faith while living in Jakarta. That was never anything but a bogus non-story on FOX that was shot down by everybody who investigated it. Now it's just another spam email campaign sent to the gullible on the mailing lists of the right wing toons

Nobody chooses their parents or ancestors. There's a difference between being born into an extended family & voluntarily joining a group. Tribes are extended families. So were nations till we came along. Judaism is a nationality. Ethnicity if you prefer. The tribes of Israel trace their heritage to a single parent. Jacob, son of Isaac & grandson of Abraham. Jacob had 12 sons. Hence the 12 tribes of Israel. He changed his name to Israel to seal the covenant between him & his brother to stop trying to kill each other over the confusion around the birthright that was bestowed on Jacob by deceipt because he claimed Esau had sold it to him. The Palisatinians trace their heritage to Esau, brother of Jacob, son of Isaac & grandson of Abraham. The people of the Arabian peninsula claim their heritage to Ishmael, half brother of Isaac, & first born son of Abraham. So who's who? If the claims are true, then Muhammad was related to the Hebrews & was a distant cousin of Jesus. The whole Palisraelistine conflict is just a 5000 year old interfamily feud over a bowl of soup.

Islam is a faith. It consists of people from all nationalities & races. It's the newest of the 3 major monotheistic middle east based religions. It grows & has grown through conversion. It's voluntary. How many generations do you go back with this whole "born a Muslim" thingie? For the sake of argument, I'm going to take Oli's statement about Obama's parents at face value, since I haven't read the book. If his natural father was agnostic, that means he wasn't any kind of practicing Muslim. So does the "born a Muslim" thingie carry over anyway? Was he "born a Muslim" because maybe his grandparents on one side were Muslims? Are his children "born a Muslim" even with a couple of generations of separation? Where does it end? Are you Polish because you're from Chicago? I can toss in an apostrophy & make Barry O'Bama an Irish Catholic.

Oh by the way... "Ball Culture" really doesn't work in this argument.

[trish]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/11/op...er&oref=slogin

[BrendaQG]

@ Trish

YES YES YES EXACTLY.

@ Hippie , Oli, and Mike.

Ya'll just don't get it. It's no so different than the way we Americans see our citizenship as a birth right. If a child is born ton a U.S. parent OR on US Soil then they are automatically a citizen of the United States of America. WE as Americans think that of being a U.S. Citizen and would tell any outsider who said other wise to go fuck themselves.

Can you not see that your trying to define who is and is not a Muslim when you yourselves are not Muslims is just like that. It's absurd!

You asked and I answered: To view how Muslims in the world view this situation see here. It's about a Egyptian court ruling saying that yes people who convert to Islam may switch back but.... the fact that they converted then reverted has to be listed on their birth certificates. In many Muslim countries and some Christian countries (I believe Spain is one such place) one's religion is considered determined at birth as if it were genetic an immutable. Much the way Americans look at gender.

Now let me say this. I personally have no problem with people who convert to Islam then convert to something else. Many Muslims believe that this is strictly forbidden. Others believe that the ban on conversion had more to do with very early Muslim armies (like ones that would have been lead by Muhammad himself) suffering desertion and deserters being executed if they are caught. In particular if they are traitors who went over the the other side in the war between Medina and Mecca. This is the period in which all of these laws were laid down , I belive by god, and trough his messenger.

Thus you can see why I am not about to let people on some message board redefine them for me.

[Oli]

@ Trish

YES YES YES EXACTLY.

@ Hippie , Oli, and Mike.

Ya'll just don't get it. It's no so different than the way we Americans see our citizenship as a birth right. If a child is born ton a U.S. parent OR on US Soil then they are automatically a citizen of the United States of America. WE as Americans think that of being a U.S. Citizen and would tell any outsider who said other wise to go fuck themselves.

Can you not see that your trying to define who is and is not a Muslim when you yourselves are not Muslims is just like that. It's absurd!

You asked and I answered: To view how Muslims in the world view this situation see here. It's about a Egyptian court ruling saying that yes people who convert to Islam may switch back but.... the fact that they converted then reverted has to be listed on their birth certificates. In many Muslim countries and some Christian countries (I believe Spain is one such place) one's religion is considered determined at birth as if it were genetic an immutable. Much the way Americans look at gender.

Now let me say this. I personally have no problem with people who convert to Islam then convert to something else. Many Muslims believe that this is strictly forbidden. Others believe that the ban on conversion had more to do with very early Muslim armies (like ones that would have been lead by Muhammad himself) suffering desertion and deserters being executed if they are caught. In particular if they are traitors who went over the the other side in the war between Medina and Mecca. This is the period in which all of these laws were laid down , I belive by god, and trough his messenger.

Thus you can see why I am not about to let people on some message board redefine them for me.

You must be one hell of a scientist...every experiment you do must go exactly as you hypothesized. You are never wrong are you?

"The candidate spoke with CBN News' David Brody on Wednesday. He discussed a number of issues including his prayer life, his stance on abortion and gay marriage, and the rumors floating through cyberspace that he is secretly a Muslim.

"I have never practiced Islam," he said. "And I think it's important for people not to buy into these sort of fear tactics that people also often use during political games."

Obama has attended Trinity United Church of Christ for the past 15 years.

"I just want to be very clear and this is obviously in no way an insult to the Muslim community who I respect deeply. But I want people to know who I am. I am a Christian," he said."
http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/266198.aspx

I can't speak for Mike or Hippi, but I'm not trying to define who is or is not a Muslim, you are. And even through the use of obscure court rulings in Egypt, ball culture and Native Americans, you've failed to produce any facts to back up your claims, or refute what Barack Obama himself has said, repeatedly.

[hippifried]

No American, & Barack Obama is an American, is subject to the laws of any other nation or any religious canons except by choice. The only person who can truly define Barack Obama is Barack Obama. He says he's not a Muslim in practice or theory. Who are we supposed to believe? Him or a bunch of religious zealots.

The Egyptian court ruling just points out the silliness & intolerance of theocracies. The Copts are the oldest existing Christian sect. The fact that so many converted & are trying to revert just tells me that the original conversion was probably coerced in the first place. A good idea doesn't need to be forced on people. If the Muslim hoi polloi of Egypt were secure in their own faith, it wouldn't even occur to them to disallow people's choice in the matter of what they believe. Sorry, but everything I've seen says that "Islamic law" is nothing more than another set of arbitrary rules laid down by a bunch of intolerant bigots claiming to speak for God as a cynical method of gaining power over their fellow man. No different than any other batch of fundamentalist zanies who would impose their will on the unwilling. You can believe what you want, but as an American, I was born owing no allegience to to anyone or any entity.

Now let me say this. I personally have no problem with people who convert to Islam then convert to something else.

But there was never a conversion on the part of Barack Obama. That's not your claim. Your claim is that he has never been other than Muslim, & by no choice of his own. Conversion is always a concious choice.

[Tomfurbs]

Brenda, I think you need to reread Trish's posts. You seem to have missed her point.

[chefmike]