Why do some tgirls who are obviously way too masculine......

[SarahG]

Hi all, first post.

I have to agree with the original poster somewhat, and with Melissa. I especially agree with Melissa on the question of choice. If you go look up autogynophelia you will find what I am 100% sure I identify with. If you agree with the information out there on the subject (and can believe what you read on the internet), many people who have transitioned can identify with that to varying degrees.

Interesting, it isn't every day that someone goes flat out and says they are AG because that one is so stigmatized due to Bailey's writings et al.

I do have a few comments, but they are not intended to come off abrasive (I am adding this disclaimer because of the way AG threads have been known to take a nose dive).

I don't feel like a "woman in a man's body". That is supposed to be how transgendered MTFs feel, but I don't.

That is because AG's aren't TS.

This isn't a bad thing, its just the way things are defined clinically/medically.

From a strict by the book medical point of view sure, GID (TS) is defined as requiring this "my birth sex doesn't and never did match me" feeling.

This means that, by the books, if you don't believe you're in the wrong physical sex at birth, you can't meet the medical definition of GID.

There are, obviously other conditions that fall under the "transgender" term. It would not be hard to find some tv's who do body modification (hrt, surgeries, you name it), so you can't strictly go by who has or has not transitioned physically in defining these medical phrases. By the books, TV and GID are nothing alike, GID is an identity disorder, TV is (right or wrong this is how it is defined in the medical texts) as a fetish.

One of the nagging parts of this forum that I always take issue with is this idea that "you're a CD until you go FT and then you BECOME ts" No, sorry, but from a medical point of view whether you are TS or not is strictly based on how your situation compares to the GID medical definitions. In theory someone who has GID has GID, rather they transition or not.

Obviously if we are going to talk about rather or not this is a choice there is a lot that can be said, for any number of the transgender sub categories. Keeping this limited to GID for this post, there is ample modern & historical evidence that people who are truly GID, will try to transition to whatever extreme they can physically reach, regardless their situation. In ancient societies people who had GID tried their own sterilization techniques, and examples of this can be found cross-culturally. In modern societies, if transitioning is out of reach, someone who truly meets the legal definitions are very likely to try to transition even when put in positions that lend themselves against it (like prisons where hrt cannot be obtained).

One of the ways of defining rather someone who is GID has to transition (read: not a choice) to function, since we are talking about choice, is this issue of how functional they are in society if they don't transition. There are people who meet the definition easily, and who are entirely dysfunctional in society without transitioning- and will either harm themselves trying to transition, societal isolate themselves, or kill themselves if living in any situation falling short from transitioning... even if they stand no chance in hell of passing.

Under such a situation, because of their mental state of existence, it is not a choice. Just as someone who has certain variants of OCD may be a pack rat and keep every piece of garbage they've ever owned in their house, used plastic bags, newspapers, twisty ties and all. It would be a choice if they have an OCD type personality without having the full blown personality disorder.

I really can't speak to why some middle aged transitioners are able to "put it off" 30 years then impulsively transition ASAP as if one more year will be the end of their existance. Is it more of a choice for them? Or are they just in such deep denial that it takes them that long to realize "who the fuck am i kidding with this act?"

There are gay guys who have been married, with kids as "a beard", but that doesn't change that they're gay. I suppose these middle aged transitioners could be falling under a similar situation BUT this is just speculation on my part.

[Tika]

I really can't speak to why some middle aged transitioners are able to "put it off" 30 years then impulsively transition ASAP as if one more year will be the end of their existance. Is it more of a choice for them? Or are they just in such deep denial that it takes them that long to realize "who the fuck am i kidding with this act?"

Some of us "middle-aged transitioners" don't transition because of fear, because of lack of knowledge or lack of access to resources, because of pride and not wanting to become whores in order to fund transition, because of societal prejudices, because of not wanting to lose family, friends, job and/or housing, because of the misconception that unless you look gorgeous don't bother transitioning... need I go on?

If transsexuals were treated like any other person, and not like meat, sex objects or freaks, it'd be a hell of a lot easier to transition. I transitioned in my 30s because I was scared and also wanted to be the "perfect woman". A friend convinced me that I'd never be perfect, just like few, if any GG's were "perfect". After having that conversation with her over lunch, I decided to "go full-time" the next day. I've never looked back.

When you're isolated from other transsexuals and have no contact with a peer group, when the internet shows itself to be a bastion of hate, judgement and ignorance, how the hell do you muster the courage to transition? Sometimes it takes years. Would I love to go back in time and transition in my late teens? Maybe. I don't know how my life would have turned out. I am who I am now because of the choices I've made.

It's always a choice for us. People delude themselves into thinking they have no choice, but that's just silly. People choose to take their own lives, choose to kill, choose to excel despite adversity, choose to save someone at the expense of their own life. We always have a choice. It might be the choice to live in misery or denial, but it's still a choice. I don't believe for a second that there's some sort of biological imperative to transition. It's a high-level, intellectual choice that we all make once we realize who/what we really are.

[Tomfurbs]

Erm.. as I undertand it, TS's transition because they need to. Not because they want to give you a boner.

[Deepdarkfucker]

Vanessa - you are just fucking hot and ALL woman in my eyes

[silkencock]

even attempt to transition? i think the only way a tranny can look good is if they have a small frame to begin with. i see these broad man-shouldered trannys who think they're gonna look good and pass as women when i can do nothing but smh. it's like they think because some small framed petite tranny can pass they can too. they're just deluding themselves. i wont name any names, but they just ain't passable and never will because they got a man's bone structure. Anybody else agree/ disagree?

Luckily for me, along with the decision to transition, I also cultivated a profound and very usefull ability to NOT GIVE A FUCK what anyone else thinks about the why's & wherefore's of my transition. Seriously, who the fuck are you that I should take your opinion into account?

Some of the most beautiful gurls I have ever met are MTF, and thier beauty was not displayed so much in thier facial or body structure, but in thier courage to be who they are, and not what you or anyone else thinks they should be. They had tremendous beauty and strength in character , and that radiated from thier linebacker shoulders to thier hipless hips and thier big ass feet.

Live and let live. Or choke on it, I don't care which.

IDK, I am pretty on the fence here as I can see a very convincing argument for passing since we DO live in a world where people's views & opinions make a difference.

Job, housing, adoption discrimination in most countries is perfectly legal when dealing with trans citizens. In most states in the US an employer could flat out tell you they're firing you because "they think you're a freak" and you won't have shit for recourse.

But with discrimination protections that pretty much happens anyway, they just have to be more polite about it on the surface. There is ample evidence out there that, despite 30+ yrs of reforms, GGs still aren't paid equally in American employment, even if it is illegal, and if they can sue over discriminatory practices.

The way this relates is if you pass you're less likely to become a target of such bigotry.... since it is pretty clear you can't rely on discrimination law that doesn't exist, and you can't rely on it when it does it exist.

To play devil's advocate against myself: if only the girls that can't pass are out, it is going to proliferate the stereotypes that "all tgirls look like nhl players in dresses." Perception makes a huge difference in the general public, and if all they ever see are the "deviant" stereotypes, then its gonna be hard to get public acceptance. How many pride parades have gotten publicity, not because of the "normal" people who are like everyone else in society in the day to day lives, but because of fist fights, and exhibitionism?

I know in this one town my mom lived in briefly the only time the gay pride parade, the small unorganized one that was there, got into the local news there- was the one year a couple of the lumberjack lesbians got in a fist fight with the christian fundies there to protest. So what could have been an proactive approach to educate the general public was, in practice, a spectacle perpetuating flawed, skewed stereotypes.... and we wonder why reform is so hard to get in this country. How can we be taken seriously, in terms of health care, marriage law, and other issues if so much of the publicity is this type of bad publicity?

We're the minority of the population, if we keep distancing the general public with a "we don't give a fuck what you think" attitude,* all it is going to do is convince them we're freaks that shouldn't get the things we ask for.



*Or worse, a violent, militant attitude. Anyone remember the thread about the fight that broke out in a McDonalds roughly 6-9 months ago?

On a community - to - community level I completely agree with you, but I felt the original poster was expressing his thoughts on a much more person-to-person level. Of course, I would love to look as female as possible, and I strive to look and act female: I take great care to notice and mimic the mannerisms of those females in my life I feel are closest to representing the kind of woman I want to be. But in the end, reguardless of the amount of hormones I take, or surgeries I get, there will always be traces of the man I am trying to leave behind. I am ok with that: it is the burden of the trans person, and I fully accept it.

What I do not accept is the idea that, because my build is not that of a female, I should stay home and not present myself to the world as I see fit. On a community relations level, I would gladly take time to talk to someone skeptical of the motives or desires that lead me to transition. But on a personal relations level, a guy who comes up to me and says "Who do you think your fooling? You look like a linebacker in a dress!" --Well, as I said, that person can choke on it.

[meghanchavalier]

Well, this is one subject I must chime in on because I am a tall girl, 5'11 and there is nothing wrong with being tall. I have two sisters who are exactly the same height as I am. It's genetics, some people are born tall, some short. I'm not sure why we're even having this discussion. There has to come a time when people learn to accept people for who they are and who they choose to become. No one should judge anyone for becoming exactly who they want to become, it's not your place. Worry about your own life and stop being so concerned with what's happening in everyone elses. If more people would spend more time loving and accepting each other we wouldn't even be having such ridiculous discussions. Maybe next time we should talk about how people in wheelchairs aren't as good as people who can walk, or people that are deaf aren't as good as hearing people. These sort of discussions just encourage hatred. It makes no sense to me.

[SarahG]

What I do not accept is the idea that, because my build is not that of a female, I should stay home and not present myself to the world as I see fit.

And where did I say that? You're reading too much into my post, I don't beat around issues. If I were saying middle aged transitioners shouldn't transition or be seen in public I would have flat out gone out and said it. I am blunt, direct, and would make such a comment -if- that was what I was saying.

The fact of the matter is, "right or wrong", if all the general public sees are nonpassing middle aged transitioners, or trans people (ts, tv or anything else) getting in fist fights in cities, then that is going to be the lasting impression/stereotype they have for all trans people.

I am proposing NO solutions to rectify this, it is simply my observation on "how the world works"

Talking strictly theory, I am sure if more trans people appeared to the general public as normal, both in appearance and in behavior, it will with time make the general public's attitudes far more open, receptive, and tolerant.

That isn't going to happen when girls beat up clerks at mcdonalds with tire irons for being read however. It isn't going to happen if all they know about are middle aged tvs in hose jerking off, and it isn't going to happen if they see all chasers as cockbandits so addicted to cock as to go to the scottish games to "hit on all the guys in skirts"

My limited optimism on the subject is: younger transitioning is catching on, in the US it isn't that difficult to find girls who started in or before their early 20s. In some other nations it isnt hard to find girls now that are transitioning in or before puberty. If this trend continues across the board it COULD produce enough "normal every day girls who happen to be trans", without the lasting effects of T, without being forced into the sex industry to pay for their medical needs, and without assimilating into the lgb community for support that it just might win the general public over. Perhaps the -radical- lgb groups agree on this point, it would explain the few militant groups out there that go out of their way to oppose early transitioning. They know that early transitioners will be no more or less gay than GGs or GBs, and the role trans people have had in these groups over the last century has been so critical, so instrumental to their cause (even if we were SOR with ENDA) that it would not be in their best interest to lose it in favor of widespread assimilation, blending, stealth etc.

[silkencock]

What I do not accept is the idea that, because my build is not that of a female, I should stay home and not present myself to the world as I see fit.

And where did I say that? You're reading too much into my post, I don't beat around issues. If I were saying middle aged transitioners shouldn't transition or be seen in public I would have flat out gone out and said it. I am blunt, direct, and would make such a comment -if- that was what I was saying.

The fact of the matter is, "right or wrong", if all the general public sees are nonpassing middle aged transitioners, or trans people (ts, tv or anything else) getting in fist fights in cities, then that is going to be the lasting impression/stereotype they have for all trans people.

I am proposing NO solutions to rectify this, it is simply my observation on "how the world works"

Talking strictly theory, I am sure if more trans people appeared to the general public as normal, both in appearance and in behavior, it will with time make the general public's attitudes far more open, receptive, and tolerant.

That isn't going to happen when girls beat up clerks at mcdonalds with tire irons for being read however. It isn't going to happen if all they know about are middle aged tvs in hose jerking off, and it isn't going to happen if they see all chasers as cockbandits so addicted to cock as to go to the scottish games to "hit on all the guys in skirts"

My limited optimism on the subject is: younger transitioning is catching on, in the US it isn't that difficult to find girls who started in or before their early 20s. In some other nations it isnt hard to find girls now that are transitioning in or before puberty. If this trend continues across the board it COULD produce enough "normal every day girls who happen to be trans", without the lasting effects of T, without being forced into the sex industry to pay for their medical needs, and without assimilating into the lgb community for support that it just might win the general public over. Perhaps the -radical- lgb groups agree on this point, it would explain the few militant groups out there that go out of their way to oppose early transitioning. They know that early transitioners will be no more or less gay than GGs or GBs, and the role trans people have had in these groups over the last century has been so critical, so instrumental to their cause (even if we were SOR with ENDA) that it would not be in their best interest to lose it in favor of widespread assimilation, blending, stealth etc.

You didn't say that at all. I was not referring to your posts. I was refering to the OP's post. That is the gist of his post, right? If you can't pass as female, you shouldn't be in public?

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[emmatgirl]

i totally got ignored

[saifan]

i totally got ignored

Next time type in all caps, babe.