Do you believe in Equality?

[crayons]

This is brought about by that thread about whether people here donate to charities. Do you believe everyone should be giving an equal shot? Do you believe justice and equality can co-exist? Because I don't and have a hard time understanding this stuff.

[casca82]

no they can't, there is no system of goverment, created by man, that can guarantee true equality. History is full, of such attmpts they've all failed. Justice is grey,inmy view. A persons morals and values, color what they perceive as just.

[Falrune]

This is brought about by that thread about whether people here donate to charities. Do you believe everyone should be giving an equal shot? Do you believe justice and equality can co-exist? Because I don't and have a hard time understanding this stuff.

Every person should have the right to make their voice heard (free speech and voting, mainly) and believe what they choose. I also believe in equal opportunity; people of equal merit should have an equal chance at work or education. I think justice and equality are not mutually exclusive and do coexist.

What is unjust is affirmative action (which has been confused with equal opportunity and equality).

[SarahG]

This is brought about by that thread about whether people here donate to charities. Do you believe everyone should be giving an equal shot? Do you believe justice and equality can co-exist? Because I don't and have a hard time understanding this stuff.

How are we defining equal shot? If you mean not allowing anything to be implemented to systematically keep people down based on some arbitrary characteristic, I think that works fairly well with having justice and equality co-exist.

Example- having everyone have the same set of established, natural rights allows equal shots and justice to co-exist but the same can't be said if these rights were conditional based on something pretty meanless (like "you have no right to freedom of expression if your first name ends with a vowel").

I don't see how equality and justice can coexist if it means acting to ensure everyone has the same SEC, health, # of offspring etc. This comes back to the whole free but bound in chains analogy. Everyone should have the same freedom of expression, due process, etc but there's gonna be some who by the pure probability involved at birth will end up with physical, mental, genetic, or economic limitations when compared to "everyone else." The only way I could see equality when taken to such extremes, is through an invasive process of eugenics, enslavement, forced poverty, etc. You can't make everyone have the same advantageous state of existance but you can bring everyone down to the same dire existance (responding to physical limitations by limiting everyone else in the same manner etc). There was a Bradbury story or two about such a situation but I can't think of titles right now.

[qeuqheeg222]

large scale donors are looking for tax offsets...............

[ShadowMaster]

Forced egalitarianism is not equality. I believe in equal opportunity and due process before the law. However all systems are inherently flawed because they're created and run by people. Life is inherently unfair. But what keeps you down may bring you up in different situation. The people who are the most successful are thse who best adapt to change. And being successful has nothing to do with morality which are ideals created and enforced by people. Life is not static. Society was created to best serve a group as a whole and as long as that society meets those needs it shall remain. Societies that became too corrupt or inefficient failed. If leaders become too corrupt their people purge them legislatively or violently but no one is going to knowingly allow you to drive the car in to a ditch without a fight. Nero and Caligula were executed.

A strength in one area may be a weakness elsewhere. Being tall might help you reach fruit easier but it also makes it harder to hide from predators. Being solo means you don't have to worry about group think dynamics but you don't have the benefit of dissenting opinions that may be helpful.

Affirmative Action came into being because the North did a half-ass job after the Civil War. During Reconstruction the North pulled out and let the South do WHATEVER! White Southerners took their frustration out on Blacks and other minorities. They made up more racial based laws in that time period except during maybe segregation. They could've played and fair and treated Blacks equally under the law but instead chose to abuse the power of local government. When Blacks as group achieved progressed the local whites would smash it with extreme prejudice. For example the Destruction of Black Wall Street in Oklahoma and along with the destruction of many other black towns based off piss poor excuses. They had no attention of allowing achievement based on merit. Civil Rights activists forced change so that Blacks couldn't just be outright murdered for nothing. They used to make postcards for Lynchings it was a social event! And that's just a tip of the iceburg. Segregation was instituted but law was still unequally enforced. After that was rescinded the decision a short time later affirmative action instituted. Why? Simple the government knew unless their was some sort of check and balance they wouldn't play fair. They would just choose/opt-out of hiring people who coincidently happened to be Black. They learned from the last time people would resist treating people fair unless their was a threat of being kicked in the nuts by the government. Before segregation college could allow Blacks who were qualified into school just most opted not too. How do you build a house if your enemy holds all the materials and tools? I just want to know exactly when people collectively decided to act fairly to make measures such of this unnecessary. I wonder what would happen if they did remove such measures meaning they would never have give it any thought.

Cali removed affirmative action and considering students based on race. That year they had a large influx of Asian students into the top schools. What happened? People started bitching to high heaven that maybe race should be considered. What the fuck happened you got what you wanted! People were being considered based on merit. Basically the my-kid -didn't-get-into-my-alma mater crowd started screaming. They thought their children were "ENTITLED."

TX did the same thing. They did the Top 10 percent of all schools were guaranteed free collegiate education. Sounds good on paper don't it. However they hadn't addressed the fact that not all their schools most of which were from poor areas weren't preparing their students for college. The kids were flunking because they weren't prepared. How prepared can a school's Top 10 percent be if the valedictorian has 3.6 . On the other side of the tracks rich kids parents were whining because Susie didn't get in although she had 3.9 but wasn't in the Top 10 of her school. The affluent areas have the best schools because people with money live their with the tax bracket to fund them. Poor can't afford to live there. Is that fair? Is it the rich guys fault for having a bigger wallet? So what's really fair?

As far as education goes your nation is only as strong as your succeeding generation. Do we want more people better educated or just a select few?

Apologize for the tirade but I hope this has been useful for some.

[macfan]

This is brought about by that thread about whether people here donate to charities. Do you believe everyone should be giving an equal shot? Do you believe justice and equality can co-exist? Because I don't and have a hard time understanding this stuff.

While I do not think that we can ever attain true equality because of nature itself, we can strive our best to attain some semblance of common respect and compassion in dealing with others.

I feel that if someone has wronged someone else wilfully that person who has committed a wrong, say a rapist, killer has helped to create their condition to be judged by society, how it plays out from there depends on many variables however.

[DJ_Asia]

This is brought about by that thread about whether people here donate to charities. Do you believe everyone should be giving an equal shot? Do you believe justice and equality can co-exist? Because I don't and have a hard time understanding this stuff.

Every person should have the right to make their voice heard (free speech and voting, mainly) and believe what they choose. I also believe in equal opportunity; people of equal merit should have an equal chance at work or education. I think justice and equality are not mutually exclusive and do coexist.

What is unjust is affirmative action (which has been confused with equal opportunity and equality).

I agree with you,but where in the world do these liberties exist...surely not in AmeriKKKa...

[Falrune]

Cali removed affirmative action and considering students based on race. That year they had a large influx of Asian students into the top schools. What happened? People started bitching to high heaven that maybe race should be considered. What the fuck happened you got what you wanted! People were being considered based on merit. Basically the my-kid -didn't-get-into-my-alma mater crowd started screaming. They thought their children were "ENTITLED."

You've got this backwards. California removed affirmative action because it adversely affected the entry of qualified Asians (and whites) into the university. Yes, there was a large number of Asians in higher education, but what was found was that qualification-wise, there should have been more. It was the bias against Asians integral to affirmative action that led to California eventually eliminating affirmative action (and replacing it with an equally odious policy of admissions based upon "special consideration," which no one talks about but is still in place).

And it wasn't just ONE year that Asians were adversely affected by Affirmative Action. For many years, since the late 1970s, Asian admissions were seriously hurt by affirmative action.

This is an abstraction of the Princeton study:

If affirmative action were eliminated, the acceptance rates for black applicants would fall to 12.2 percent from 33.7 percent, while the acceptance rates for Hispanic applicants would drop to 12.9 percent from 26.8 percent, according to the study. Asian-American students would fill nearly 80 percent of the spaces not taken by black and Hispanic students, the researchers found, while the acceptance rate for white students would increase by less than 1 percent.

The researchers who conducted the study -- Thomas J. Espenshade, a professor of sociology, and Chang Y. Chung, a statistical programmer at Princeton's Office of Population Research -- looked at the race, sex, SAT scores, and legacy status, among other characteristics, of more than 124,000 applicants to elite colleges.

[ShadowMaster]

I mean if you really wanted to be equal you would have to get rid of legacy preference for applicants. Then people would have less incentive to give to schools. What happens when the Oil Tycoon can't buy his son into school. What about the children of politicians? You really want to tell the President/Senator/Governor/Congressman no. Do you really want to suffer that backhand wrath from them or their friends that make your life difficult? They're just legal mobsters. Georgie or B-Dub as like to call him didn't get in on his merits. Grandpappy was rich and Pop was a Congressman. You going to them no Georgie can't enter. One of the reasons poor performing school do bad because they don't have competive incomes of affluent areas. Teachers train in the trenches then after 2 or 3 years go to a better district for higher pay. Students are better prepared and you live in a better environment. Less work, better equipment, more money. Poor schools get stuck with a constant influx of rookies and hand-me-downs. Only the diehards will stay behind. But only a small percentage of teachers are like that. It's a job like anything else for most people although it should be a calling. But if it was how many would show up?

I think when it comes down to it people favor the system that favors them even at the expense of another. That's partially why were seen exploitative around the world and even by nations who exploit others or their own people. There just mad they don't have a bigger pimp stick!

My thoughts anyway.